Veritas Dovetail saw

[Sheffield Tony]

We mentioned this saw in an earlier thread.

I will admit up front that I am not the most experienced at cutting dovetails, but I have done a few, and tried pretty much all types including mitred, and have been by and large satisfied with the results. Mostly without the aid of a proper dovetail saw, but using a small tenon saw that was my Grandad's - a S&J "Cockerill", presumably 1970's, not hardpoint but with a plastic handle and steel back.

I bought myself a Veritas saw, the 14tpi rip cut dovetail saw, in the hope it would make life easier. I kind of liked it when it arrived, but have not used it much until now. I'm making a small bookcase, of oak, with the top being joined to the sides with lapped dovetails. Pretty conspicuous, so a good chance to use my new saw. But I am finding that each time I use it, I love it a little bit less.

Years back, when I learned how to cut joints, I was told that, if you position your head directly over the cut, you can, by virtue of the separation of your eyes, see down both sides of the saw plate at the same time, and by sighting down your mark, follow the line quite nicely. A small movement of your head is reflected in the angle of the cut. Works well for me. But - if I try this with the Veritas saw - the entire saw blade, my marking out - everything is obscured by the fat composite spine ! To see where I'm cutting, I have to look down one side or the other, which I find much less easy.
This would not be so bad if it weren't for the minimal set, that means once started a tad off, there is no wriggle room to correct the mistake.

I'm struggling with the handle too. I know that dovetail saws normally have a less vertical angle than a tenon saw (though not why), but I find myself gripping this in all sorts of uncomfortable ways to make a horizontal bottom to my cut. Perhaps it is because I'm used to using the small tenon saw.

Perhaps I'm doing it all wrong, have got into bad habits etc. Maybe I need mroe practice with it. Maybe I just bought the wrong saw for me. What do you reckon ? I'd appreciate any correction from users who do like them !

 

[Trafalgar]

Nothing beats classic brass-backed British dovetail saws of reasonably decent quality. I've never taken a Lee Valley saw to a piece of wood, nor would I ever. It is probably the ugliest saw I've ever laid eyes on. A design in search of a problem, unfortunately all of which Western woodworking worked out three hundred plus years ago. I've never heard an articulation of what the resin/fiberglass thingy that purports to be the spine is supposed to bring to the table. Just different for the sake of being different, apparently. I guess easier and cheaper to manufacture? Can't think of anything else. Lord, please don't have somebody come along and tell me that the wretched plastic spine/handle costs MORE than a brass spine would.

I can't imagine that a thicker spine could ever be an advantage, more like something to be overcome, as you're finding out.

 

[IHc1vtr+]

To me the veritas saw's are overpriced and ugly.

 

[John15]

Hi Tony,

I'm on the brink of buying a dovetail saw so your comments and observations on the Veritas are very interesting. I'm leaning towards a 15tpi Pax which gets good reviews - it's just the price that's holding me back. I hope you overcome the difficulty with the Veritas.

John

 

[Jacob]

We mentioned this saw in an earlier thread.

I will admit up front that I am not the most experienced at cutting dovetails, but I have done a few, and tried pretty much all types including mitred, and have been by and large satisfied with the results. Mostly without the aid of a proper dovetail saw, but using a small tenon saw that was my Grandad's - a S&J "Cockerill", presumably 1970's, not hardpoint but with a plastic handle and steel back.

I bought myself a Veritas saw, the 14tpi rip cut dovetail saw, in the hope it would make life easier. I kind of liked it when it arrived, but have not used it much until now. I'm making a small bookcase, of oak, with the top being joined to the sides with lapped dovetails. Pretty conspicuous, so a good chance to use my new saw. But I am finding that each time I use it, I love it a little bit less.

Years back, when I learned how to cut joints, I was told that, if you position your head directly over the cut, you can, by virtue of the separation of your eyes, see down both sides of the saw plate at the same time, and by sighting down your mark, follow the line quite nicely. A small movement of your head is reflected in the angle of the cut. Works well for me. But - if I try this with the Veritas saw - the entire saw blade, my marking out - everything is obscured by the fat composite spine ! To see where I'm cutting, I have to look down one side or the other, which I find much less easy.
This would not be so bad if it weren't for the minimal set, that means once started a tad off, there is no wriggle room to correct the mistake.

I'm struggling with the handle too. I know that dovetail saws normally have a less vertical angle than a tenon saw (though not why), but I find myself gripping this in all sorts of uncomfortable ways to make a horizontal bottom to my cut. Perhaps it is because I'm used to using the small tenon saw.

Perhaps I'm doing it all wrong, have got into bad habits etc. Maybe I need mroe practice with it. Maybe I just bought the wrong saw for me. What do you reckon ? I'd appreciate any correction from users who do like them !

14tpi is a bit coarse for DTs. 18 to 20 better. Thats what you find on the classic S&J types from 50 years ago. There's nothing magic about the Veritas saw but it'll improve with practice!
Not sure about that cross eyed squint down both sides of the blade - could damage your eyesight? I can't do it and gave myself a twinge of headache trying. :shock:

 

[Peter Sefton]

I think the Veritas saws are good for the price but the 14TPI is my least favourite out of the range.
The back on the Veritas is 9.5mm wide compared to 7.3mm for the Pear handled Pax 1776.
The Veritas weighs .75 LBs and the 1776 is 1.05 LBs most of this weight is where it matters in the back.

My personal favourite is the heavy weight saw, I find in the workshop once bench tested we sell around three Pax to ever one Veritas.

Cheers Peter

 

[MIGNAL]

I don't have that particular Veritas saw but I do have the Veritas 14 TPI X-cut. I also have many traditional brass backed tenon/dovetail saws.
I must admit that I prefer the traditional brass backed saw, with it's extra weight. Having said that the Veritas is a pretty good saw and probably came as sharp (out of the box) as any new saw that I've ever bought, with the exception of the odd Japanese saw.
I don't mind the handle of the Veritas but prefer the handle on my old Groves. It's not a big deal though. With a bit of practice you should be able to make it work but what do I know about dovetails and TPI? Not a lot.

 

[DannyJH]

It may just be your natural technique, which suits your old saw but not the new.

Try a few rip cuts on a scrap piece of timber. Then change your posture slightly, elbow a little away from your body or towards and note the difference. Then notice how you stand while cutting, are you a little too front on to the bench, feet wide enough apart to be well balanced ect. You may become to notice that small changes can change the angle of a cut a fair bit.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I have several dovetail saws: LN, IT, Gramercy, Wenzloff .. and both the 14 ad 20 tpi Veritas saws. Once one gets past the issue of tradition vs innovation ... of brass vs composite ... the Veritas saws cut just as well as the more expensive saws. They are well balanced and excellent value for money. The fact is that they cost half what you pay for a brass-backed saw. If money is no object, get a Gramercy or LN. If all you can justify spending is the Veritas price, be reassured that you are getting a saw that works as well, but just is not as pretty (in my eyes). I cannot say that I have ever noticed that the fibre backing impedes my vision, but then I tend to watch the blade at an angle, so perhaps it is a matter of technique.

Here is a review of the 20 tpi that compares it with the 14 tpi and other brands: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... ilSaw.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Thanks for all the comments. It was worth asking, as my techniques are based on what I learned at school, or from my dad, or from the odd book or magazine, minus what I've forgotten in the meantime, so you never can be sure that there isn't something you're doing wrong. I know from the bits of sport I have done that being aware of the posture you adopt can be surprisingly difficult - you don't tend to think about it much - when I used to row, watching a video of yourself was often quite a surprise ! I will try to think about what I'm doing and my stance a bit more next time I use it (the ones for my bookcase are all cut now).

Peter - I read your article about dovetail saws somewhere, and I think you mentioned briefly sharpening and setting them - could you remind me of what sort of saw set suits these small teeth best ? I have an old Buck Hickman one but it is a bit clumsy for teeth this small.

Jacob - You don't have to go cross eyed to see both sides of the saw plate at the same time if your nose is directly over the back, and the saw is vertical. Well, I don't think I do ... And I have this nagging suspicion that I would have been happier with one of the "classic S&J types from 50 years ago" you mention instead of this newfangled Veritas !

 

[swagman]

Hi Tony. I am surprised Veritas dont supply a laser beam with their range of backsaws. They look a bit Darth Vader in appearance.

Stewie;

 

[Jacob]

..... And I have this nagging suspicion that I would have been happier with one of the "classic S&J types from 50 years ago" you mention instead of this newfangled Veritas !

I'm sure you would! They are still around on ebay etc £10 ish upwards.

 

[G S Haydon]

Thanks for the feedback on the saw. Most likely you are so dialed in with your present set up that any change would feel awkward. I would think it's a matter of keep using it or move it on.

 

[bertikus_maximus]

Long term lurker emerging here to stand up for the Vertias saw. To be transparent, the Vertias is the first brand new 'premium' dovetail saw I've owned, so I don't have a great wealth of experience to compare it against. However, comparing it to some second hand saws I owned before, it is excellent. It's incredibly sharp, feels nice in the hand (or at least it does in my hand) and tracks well during the cut. As an example, my ability to saw to a line first time, every time was pretty awful with my older saws but the Veritas is pretty much, as Derek says on his blog, 'point and shoot'. Granted, it still requires some concentration to get right but cutting to the line is much easier with this saw.

In my opinion, for the money, this saw is well worth it. Granted, it might not be traditional in appearance and the 'premium premium' Pax saws etc might be a bit better but given the quality of this saw, I do question the need to spend £100+ when you can get the Veritas for under £70.

I also must be the only person who actually likes the bold design of the Veritas saw!

Maybe the problem is familiarity with your regular saw when compared against the Vertias? Perhaps a bit like when you drive a different car and the biting point and gearbox is a bit different. Doesn't mean its bad, just 'different' and needs a bit of getting used to.

(hammer)

 

[richarddownunder]

Hi Tony,

I'm on the brink of buying a dovetail saw so your comments and observations on the Veritas are very interesting. I'm leaning towards a 15tpi Pax which gets good reviews - it's just the price that's holding me back. I hope you overcome the difficulty with the Veritas.

John

Recently bought a Pax 1776. I've been cutting dovetails with it over the past few days and really like it. Nice fine cut, cuts dead straight and just seems really easy to use. My dovetails have also improved.

Sorry OP, this isn't much help to you and hope you sort your veritas saw out.

Cheers
Richard

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I gave it a seeing to with a file and saw set. Unfortunately it is a bit fiddly both for my eyesight and my rather clumsy Buck Hickman saw set so it looks less pretty, but still cuts better than it did.

 

[John15]

Tony,
Regarding the difficulty in seeing small teeth for sharpening, I bought one of those magnifiers that fits on your head off ebay (can't think of the correct name). It's brilliant. The teeth are clear and magnified making sharpening much easier. I bought the £10 one direct from Hong Kong and it works a treat.
John

 

[Trafalgar]

The design seems more a mandate to differentiate themselves with a certain "look" than one aimed at producing a better saw per se. Classic designs are just that for a reason. It does come in at a price point and it may be the composition spine that helps get it there.

 

[Trafalgar]

Tony,
Regarding the difficulty in seeing small teeth for sharpening, I bought one of those magnifiers that fits on your head off ebay (can't think of the correct name). It's brilliant. The teeth are clear and magnified making sharpening much easier. I bought the £10 one direct from Hong Kong and it works a treat.
John

Binocular magnifiers is what we call them.

 

[mouppe]

The design seems more a mandate to differentiate themselves with a certain "look" than one aimed at producing a better saw per se. Classic designs are just that for a reason. It does come in at a price point and it may be the composition spine that helps get it there.

I disagree. I can't think of any Veritas products that follow that ethos so why should the saws be different? There are reasons why the saw is designed so, and to be different for the sake of it is not one of them.

The Veritas dovetail saw was the first saw I bought and it served me well for many years. Eventually I bought a Lie Nielsen saw which I prefer overall. But it is also 1 1/2 times the price for an identical cut quality.

One of the reasons behind the Veritas handle design is that it makes tightening or replacing the handle very easy because it is held in place with a single brass fastener. And it is a lighter saw than traditional ones of the same size if weight is important to you (being lighter is a drawback for me).