Veneering

[kevinlightfoot]

I am intending to attempt Veneering in the new year.I have never done this before,so I would like advice on what type to buy,paper backed,solid wood ,iron on or some other kind.Also what kind of glues to use,clamping etc .Any advice would be appreciated but not the kind that points me to you tube or written advice in books I am hoping for advice from people who actually use veneers in their own work and have plenty of experience and can relate pitfalls in both the purchasing and use of veneers.I want to veneer some cabinet doors made from ply or mdf with solid wood lipping.

 

[JJ1]

Having only veneered perhaps a couple of dozen items I don't have a fraction of the experience of many on here. But, for what it's worth. I used good quality paper backed veneers. The adhesive used was Titebond Cold Press, applied evenly with a rubber roller. I don't have a vacuum press so I've sandwiched the veneered material between two 25mm thick MDF sheets, using cauls for larger areas and as many clamps as I could fit, using plenty of clamping pressure.
Everything has gone smoothly (touch wood) and no issues have arisen.
Cabinet doors should be fairly straight forward I would have thought.

Why dismiss Youtube. I've always found it an excellent learning resource with plenty of superb and useful content?

 

[kevinlightfoot]

You answered your own question I have learnt more from you than from any of the you tube rubbish from amateur woodworkers on an ego trip ,many thanks for your info on types of veneer and glue that you suggest.I had been looking more at the veneers that were not paper backed as I thought they would adhere better to the substrate and I was also thinking of using a pva glue from the gorrila range so I have now got at least two more options to consider.Clamps are not a problem I have plenty but I am very grateful for your advice.

 

[marcros]

what items are you planning on veneering? are they flat, curved, large, small?

personally, for small items, i would suggest having a go at hammer veneering, using hide glue.

 

[mbartlett99]

On the note of youtube - I was in the same situation 6 months ago and watched a whole bunch of youtube vids. There were a few different techniques. One was really attractive; coat both sides with titebond, let it tack up so the surface was dry to touch and then iron on your veneer. I tried it; was quick stress free and required no special equipment. It worked great until I looked at the joints - they'd all shrunk back and opened a 2-3mm gap. Trouble is with half the youtube stuff is they explain half the technique and not the potential pitfalls.

I eventually fell back on the cold press/chipboard/cauls method but it was slow and cumbersome. I've got a lot more to do so if anyone has a speedier method I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.

 

[kevinlightfoot]

Cabinet doors about 20x10 inches ,do you consider this large or small?Also would 20 MM birch ply be a better option in your opinion than mdf of the same thickness.That would be the panels approximate size inside a solid wood frame.

 

[marcros]

for something flat like that, I think that I would probably go with JJ1's method. If you already had a veneer hammer, iron, glue pot etc, the hammer method would also work, but that size is about as big an item as I have worked with.

 

[kevinlightfoot]

Thanks for your words on the tack of you tube most of them haven't a clue I was a professional Woodturners before I became a primary school teacher and when I watch some of the so called experts on you tube they make me cringe I wouldn't let them near a lathe never mind putting them close to a piece of spinning wood with a woodturning tool in their hands.j

 

[custard]

I do a fair bit of commercial veneering, I either use a press for small components or a vac bag for larger stuff. 20" x 10" would be vac bag size in my workshop.

If you're just getting into it then you don't want to go to the expense of vac veneering straight away. Start with much smaller panels, say 10" x 6" pieces of good quality birch ply or MDF (in 18mm or 25mm thickness until you've got some experience), begin with traditional hammer veneering (the equipment is cheap) or use glue sheets which you position between the substrate and the veneer and then iron on. You've a fair bit to learn just on the peripheral but essential skills like flushing lipping down to the veneer surface, or mitring lipping all the way around a panel without it becoming a gappy embarrassment. Also, don't attempt burrs or highly figured veneers until you've cracked the basics, start with some straight grained stuff that's as dull and boring as you can find, that's the type of veneer that normally lays flat and behaves itself!

Good luck!

 

[kevinlightfoot]

Good point Marcos I don't have glue pot ,veneer hammer etc I quite like the idea of calls etc.

 

[kevinlightfoot]

Thanks Custard I'm ok with the flush lipping etc.I have done plenty of that on veneered ply and mdf,your tip of working on smaller panelsI will take on board.Do I have to buy these sheets of adhesive separately from the veneers or does it come attached on the back,forgive my ignorance in this field but I have learned over the years that the obvious isn't obvious until it's been explained.

 

[JJ1]

Just one further thought.
You might want to check out the prices of 8' x 4' (or whatever size) per-veneered MDF. You might well discover it's actually cheaper to buy veneered MDF than it is to buy the veneer and MDF seperately, not only saving money but a lot of work also.

 

[custard]

Do I have to buy these sheets of adhesive separately from the veneers or does it come attached on the back,

You buy it separately, that way you get a much wider choice of veneers,

http://www.originalmarquetry.co.uk/cate ... ives_1.htm

Incidentally, here's where I buy my veneer,

https://www.capitalcrispin.com/products.php

 

[mbartlett99]

I do a fair bit of commercial veneering, I either use a press for small components or a vac bag for larger stuff. 20" x 10" would be vac bag size in my workshop.

If you're just getting into it then you don't want to go to the expense of vac veneering straight away. Start with much smaller panels, say 10" x 6" pieces of good quality birch ply or MDF (in 18mm or 25mm thickness until you've got some experience), begin with traditional hammer veneering (the equipment is cheap) or use glue sheets which you position between the substrate and the veneer and then iron on. You've a fair bit to learn just on the peripheral but essential skills like flushing lipping down to the veneer surface, or mitring lipping all the way around a panel without it becoming a gappy embarrassment. Also, don't attempt burrs or highly figured veneers until you've cracked the basics, start with some straight grained stuff that's as dull and boring as you can find, that's the type of veneer that normally lays flat and behaves itself!

Good luck!

Hey Custard did you see my comment on the gaps opening on my joints when ironed on? Still don't know why and guess it might happen with glue film - which I also am considering.

 

[custard]

Hey Custard did you see my comment on the gaps opening on my joints when ironed on? Still don't know why and guess it might happen with glue film - which I also am considering.

To joint veneers with hammer veneering you overlap the veneers on the ground then knife through them both. But with all other types of veneering you joint the veneers before you lay them, sticking them together with copious amounts of tape. Traditionally that would be perforated paper veneer tape, today it's more likely to be sellotape or a specialist (but expensive) plastic tape like the stuff manufactured by Tessa. You run one length down the seam, then a zig zag "stitching" of tape to pull the joint together. If you're using saw cut or constructional veneer you always glue the edges together (just like you'd glue boards of timber together to make up a table top), many fussy workers (myself included) also glue together the edges of 0.6mm commercial veneers. That may sound a bit like overkill but it's worth thinking about because there's also a situation where the bottom of the veneer (the glue surface) is firmly attached to the ground, but the top surface can shrink a tiny bit which over time can open up a tiny gap. Not enough to see through to the ground, but enough to trap dirt and give the impression of a poor quality glue line. Obviously with a 1mm or thicker saw cut veneer this is a much bigger issue, but I've seen the same thing happen with 0.6mm knife cut commercial veneer, so I personally edge glue all joints.

If you're vac pressing or using a home made caul or press then sellotape is usually fine. If you're using the much higher pressures of an industrial hydraulic heated veneer press, or you're working with a particularly soft veneer, then sellotape is thick enough that it can leave a physical impression in the veneer surface that requires a lot of sanding out, hence why Tessa can charge a fortune for their specialist tape.

 

[Mr T]

Having only veneered perhaps a couple of dozen items I don't have a fraction of the experience of many on here. But, for what it's worth. I used good quality paper backed veneers. The adhesive used was Titebond Cold Press, applied evenly with a rubber roller. I don't have a vacuum press so I've sandwiched the veneered material between two 25mm thick MDF sheets, using cauls for larger areas and as many clamps as I could fit, using plenty of clamping pressure.
Everything has gone smoothly (touch wood) and no issues have arisen.
Cabinet doors should be fairly straight forward I would have thought.

Why dismiss Youtube. I've always found it an excellent learning resource with plenty of superb and useful content?

I have done a fair bit of both caul, vacuum and hammer veneering over the years. For a beginner set up I think I think JJ has it about right. I would suggest using ordinary solid veneer not paper backed, I'd use a foam paint roller instead of a rubber one ( the smaller 150mm wide ones). Mdf is a good substrate for veneering, I have experienced movement with birch ply leading to slight checking of the veneer surface. It's worth doing a couple of practice runs on spare bits of mdf before doing the real thing, then you won't be wasting lipped panels if it doesn't work

I would not recommend hammer veneering, firstly you've got to get the equipment and materials together, hammer, glue pot, glue. Secondly it can be a tricky, messy and frustrating procedure, certainly easier learnt first hand rather than by written or video instruction.

I think you may be throwing the baby out with the bath water in disregarding Youtube, some experienced and capable makers post there, just check out their credentials first.

Chris

 

[Mr T]

Having only veneered perhaps a couple of dozen items I don't have a fraction of the experience of many on here. But, for what it's worth. I used good quality paper backed veneers. The adhesive used was Titebond Cold Press, applied evenly with a rubber roller. I don't have a vacuum press so I've sandwiched the veneered material between two 25mm thick MDF sheets, using cauls for larger areas and as many clamps as I could fit, using plenty of clamping pressure.
Everything has gone smoothly (touch wood) and no issues have arisen.
Cabinet doors should be fairly straight forward I would have thought.

Why dismiss Youtube. I've always found it an excellent learning resource with plenty of superb and useful content?

I have done a fair bit of both caul, vacuum and hammer veneering over the years. For a beginner set up I think I think JJ has it about right. I would suggest using ordinary solid veneer not paper backed, I'd use a foam paint roller instead of a rubber one ( the smaller 150mm wide ones). Mdf is a good substrate for veneering, I have experienced movement with birch ply leading to slight checking of the veneer surface. It's worth doing a couple of practice runs on spare bits of mdf before doing the real thing, then you won't be wasting lipped panels if it doesn't work

I would not recommend hammer veneering, firstly you've got to get the equipment and materials together, hammer, glue pot, glue. Secondly it can be a tricky, messy and frustrating procedure, certainly easier learnt first hand rather than by written or video instruction.

I think you may be throwing the baby out with the bath water in disregarding Youtube, some experienced and capable makers post there, just check out their credentials first.

Chris

 

[mrpercysnodgrass]

Hey Custard did you see my comment on the gaps opening on my joints when ironed on? Still don't know why and guess it might happen with glue film - which I also am considering.[/quote]

I agree with what Custard said, you may also have been using too much water causing the veneer to expand while you were working it and then shrinking back when dry. It is possible to correct this by running an iron over the veneer until the glue has softened then push the veneers back together.

 

[mrpercysnodgrass]

Cabinet doors about 20x10 inches ,do you consider this large or small?Also would 20 MM birch ply be a better option in your opinion than mdf of the same thickness.That would be the panels approximate size inside a solid wood frame.

Your 20x10 panels are a little large for a first attempt. I would suggest veneering a smaller panel using one piece of straight grained veneer and then move on to joining two pieces of veneer.

I know you have said that you do not have a glue pot and hammer but you do not need to purchase these to give traditional veneering a try.

Hide glue can be heated in a jar placed in a pan of water with a ply collar over the pan to stop the water evaporating too quickly and a temporary veneer hammer can be made out of a piece of shaped hardwood without the brass insert.

I would say mdf is not suitable for veneering with hide, because of the amount of water used there is a possibility of it swelling.

Unlike all of the modern glues, hide glue is reversible so mistakes can be rectified.

If you veneer with PVA and the glue bleeds through the veneer it can block your stain giving a patchy effect.

 

[kevinlightfoot]

Thanks to all this is the kind of info I was looking for .Ok some contradiction in advice but some excellent tips on some of the pitfalls.You don't get the gremlins on you tube Chris and that's why I avoid it.