VED musings

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Missing the point. The context is that as EV's increase in numbers, less fuel tax. That is the starting point. No-one is talking about getting rid of VED/flat rate. To replace the fuel duty, charging people on the miles that they drive is one alternative but needs a simple method of recording the mileage. That simple method is using the mileage entered into the Govt database when you get an MOT.

But no doubt you will disagree, obfuscate or complicate the discussion.

I'm sure that pay per mile has been investigated for VED as a replacement for Fuel Duty at the pumps, but I'm not so sure it is a viable option in the short term for any number of reasons.

I'm also sure that VED bands are changing this April, with a complete realignment of EV rates of VED.
 
I'm sure that pay per mile has been investigated for VED as a replacement for Fuel Duty at the pumps, but I'm not so sure it is a viable option in the short term for any number of reasons.
With the ubiquity of ANPR nowadays I think pay per mile is quite viable as an alternative to VED.
 
A friend of mine in the village has one. I'll ask him if he's had such a letter. Sounds like made up nonsense to me.

Apart from anything else, why would a petrol head but an EV Taycan?
Well given that the guy actually shows the letter in a video I would think it's true, unless of course he's faked it in which case he might receive a legal response from Porche. :ROFLMAO: See screenshot and video link.
 

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I'm sure that pay per mile has been investigated for VED as a replacement for Fuel Duty at the pumps, but I'm not so sure it is a viable option in the short term for any number of reasons.

I'm also sure that VED bands are changing this April, with a complete realignment of EV rates of VED.
You really haven't bothered to properly read what I posted. Or maybe you're having difficulty in understanding. Either way, I don't have the time, patience or will to enlighten you.
 
Personally, I think pay per mile is a thoroughly fair proposal. Obviously vehicle weight and pollution should be factored in to the per mile charge. How it would be implemented is another question, but not beyond the wit of mortal man.
 
From a Treasury perspective, duty, VAT and VED all contribute towards total revenue which is then allocated to different government expenditures - health education, defence, transport etc etc.

They are set partly due to historical circumstance and partly to influence particular behaviours - eg: tax on fuel is variable with and may reduce use, VED is a fixed charge on ownership based partially on emissions which may encourage less environmentally damaging vehicles.

That a rethink is needed is self evident - fuel duties currently generate ~80% of Treasury income from motoring taxes. I suspect some variant on pay per mile for EVs. Taxation needs to be (a) easy and cheap to collect, and (b) difficult to avoid.

The basis needs to be balanced between urban users with access to public transport or other options, and rural and small town dwellers for whom mobility is reliant on personal transport.

As a minimum one option would be ANPR or toll tags for motorways and entry into city congestion zones. If barrier controlled (either permanently or randomly) - no pay, no go.

The MOT option may be too easy to avoid or defraud - folk may accumulate a whole years travel, then disappear without paying, sell car, run car which does not need MOT etc. Enforcement is questionable - police seem to find it difficult to prosecute VED or insurance offences.

Individual tracking uploaded to a central computer would be perceived as an intrusive affront.
 
ANPR is not that great- I once ACCIDENTALLY drove my car on all of the normal roads, meeting the occasional police car, for 5 months without an MOT! As soon as I checked and realised, I immediately arranged an MOT, which the car subsequently passed, at which I was again legal to drive said vehicle.
My point is that no cameras or police cars managed to spot me illegally driving the car, so ANPR cannot really be relied on for this option.
 
You really haven't bothered to properly read what I posted. Or maybe you're having difficulty in understanding. Either way, I don't have the time, patience or will to enlighten you.

Oh well, looks like I'm on my own to decipher one of your potential, but not obvious, points.

In your original post it would appear that you said nobody knew about the consultation. In my first post I decided not to directly pick you up on this, but I will now: what you posted about lack of consultation on the consultation is patently untrue. I contributed to it myself, so it wasn't "hidden" and in any case - are you some kind of authority in the field of cars and legislation - I would guess not - otherwise you would have heard about it - and this is the thing - the consultation was specifically looking for input from the entire ecosystem of classic car enthusiasts and modifications industry.

In another post you dug your heels in a bit and stated that it didn't say what prompted the consultation - which was then debunked immediately.

You imply that the consultation was a "front" or veiled attempt to impose greater VED/replace Fuel Duty across the entire car owning public. Without evidence. I say this implied point is imagined and not real. The most likely reason, in my view (being a car person after all) for the consultation was to ensure any and all of the "highly modified" electric conversions - which up until recently were extremely rare, but now are obtaining significant momentum within the industry - were safe and roadworthy and up until recently had no real legislative background to assure safety to both the user and the general public.

Moreover, the point about FOI being ignored is highly unlikely.

If your original post is implying that pay per mile was the fundamental raison d'etre for the consultation, again, I would strongly suggest that this is not the case - this consultation was centred entirely around safety aspects. I completed the consultation survey, so I am personally familiar with it's contents and nothing in the questionnaire centred on any kind of tax revenue, whether that be pay per mile or VED brackets. Nada.

If you mean that pay per mile is inevitable - then I wouldn't disagree with that sentiment. I actually support it myself. Owning very inefficient performance cars, and driving them "inefficiently", lol, and with those being high on VED - the counter to which is that when driven "rarely" or for few miles per year, this high VED cannot possibly "justified" on a CO2 output basis, since the efficient, low VED bracket turbo-diesel rep-mobile doing 20,000 to 30,000 mile per annum pumps out tens of times more CO2 than my car driven 1,500 miles per annum. That said, with Fuel Duty it was a hidden pence per mile payment anyway.

Reduction in Fuel Duty Revenue from increasing EV sales does therefore need a re-balance. Anyone can see this and no I didn't read it here first - this has been a topic for discussion for many years already. However, the Tax system is also used to "shape consumer behaviour" as well as raise revenue for public services. So persuading consumers to change into EVs being a real thing - EVs got lots of Tax Breaks for early adopters. As I said earlier, this VED break for EVs is about to start to change in only 4 months time from now - but has been debated for years already about which is more important at the time: the balance between Tax Revenue and consumer behaviour is a complex topic.

If you think that pay per mile on the basis of MOT mileage is in nay way shape or form a "viable method", then I think you are smoking something. It isn't.

Also, ANPR is not a viable method. There are an infinite number of routes and therefore mileages than can be accrued between 2 separate cameras. Without a ANPR style tracking device on every single street corner and deployed across every twisty country road, ANPR is not viable in the real world.

My tuppence is that the only viable and accurate method of mileage tracking - and attributing that mileage to an individual for billing and payment responsibility - is with on-board vehicle tracking.

Tracking systems are already deployed in every single new car manufactured since a few years ago. (Mileage alteration detection has been a thing since OBDII albeit with on-board sensors and logging - so this in itself is not a viable system for pay per mile - but it was a sign of things to come). Many new vehicles (particularly software-laden EVs) come with report-back-to-manufacturer-data-link systems that can send data back to the manufacturer over the internet. It is in the manufacturer's interests to do this to prevent out-of-warranty based warranty claims being paid. In fact the data logging extends to many variables in most cars since before 2010. (For instance, we had a 2009 Porsche 997 Turbo that we sold a couple of years ago and Porsche wouldn't put a value on it until they'd hooked it up to their data-download system to check how many times the car had data-logged an "engine over-rev" event between gear-changes. Needless to say I declined and sold it to a Porsche Specialist instead of entertaining such ridiculousness of "excuse for lowball offer".)

Until vehicle tracking and reporting systems are more generally accepted for such transactions - and we do know that they are already fitted and being actively used - then I believe that any other pay-per-mile system would be fundamentally flawed - and enough to be clearly considered not viable by policy makers.

So, this consultation on older vehicles and modifications "might" be considered as a veiled attempt to leverage old car owners to accept enforceably-fitted tracking systems into modified vehicles, but I strongly believe that would be a stretch of imagination - simply because it leaves out the cars in the intervening period - the inbetweeners. Inbetweeners such as my 1999 Mitsubishi Evo 6, which has an aftermarket ECU retuned with Manifold Air Pressure (MAP) sensor instead of Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor to safely run higher turbo boost through a 3" exhaust and custom air intake (~18mpg on road, ~7mpg on track, but only did 1,500 miles last year). Which is now a "keeper" car - partly due to the ever-encroaching electronic big brother systems now being fitted to modern vehicles. Will cars like this ever be forced off the public road? Or require mandatory tracking devices? At the owner's expense? Who knows...

TLDR: If you need to spell out your conspiracy theories, please do better in future, since I wasn't the only one struggling with your intended meaning. If you had one?
 
ANPR is not that great- I once ACCIDENTALLY drove my car on all of the normal roads, meeting the occasional police car, for 5 months without an MOT! As soon as I checked and realised, I immediately arranged an MOT, which the car subsequently passed, at which I was again legal to drive said vehicle.
My point is that no cameras or police cars managed to spot me illegally driving the car, so ANPR cannot really be relied on for this option.
I'm not sure whether this is evidence of ANPR inadequacy, or police overstretched with priorities greater than a missing MOT.

I suspect that most prosecutions for things like missing MOT and insurance follow from accident enquiries or other reasons for being stopped - speeding, alcohol etc.
 
Oh well, looks like I'm on my own to decipher one of your potential, but not obvious, points.

In your original post it would appear that you said nobody knew about the consultation. In my first post I decided not to directly pick you up on this, but I will now: what you
H.C. ? Really?? Honestly?? You just cannot be asking that we take this seriously? Stereotypical flame war. Wake up and smell the hummous.
 
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