Unknown plane.

[WellsWood]

Being a self confessed machine-head I 'm surprised to find myself posting in this neck of the woods, but can any of you good people identify this?



The body's about 15" long by 2 5/8" wide which seems to make it a No.5 1/2. The blade is 2" wide and tapers slightly in thickness from each end, is about 3/16" at it's thickest point in the middle, and is supported by a very unusual (to me at least) system where the cap iron is replaced with a solid bar, integral to the body, with a thumbscrew though it. The body carries no identification marks of any kind, the only makers stamps are on the blade and chipbreaker: Ryan and Buck respectively(see pics). I know Buck & Ryan have been selling tools since 1820 or so, but I can't figure why their names appear seperately on different components - so this might be pure coincidence.

I've never really had much interest in hand planes, save for looking whistfully at LNs in the same way a non-driver looks at exotic sportscars, but for some reason this has fired my curiosity. I'm quite interested in having a crack at cleaning it up and seeing if I can use it for anything useful, if anyone thinks this would be worthwhile.

S'funny, is it my imagination, or does the ground fall away slightly from here?

Mark

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Mark

Now I can help you out here and it will be very simple. Just say the word and I'll move this post off-line and we'll forget it ever happened. :lol:

What do you say?

Cheers
Neil

 

[Scrit]

Ah, but is it Buck & Ryan at all? There was also a completely unrelated firm in America famous until quite recently for their chisels and irons: Buck Bros. I can't recognise the plane, but is there anyone out there with a set of PTAMPIA (Patented and Transitional Metallic Planes in America) who might be able to identify it? Or is it British after all? The shape certainly makes me think 1860s to 1880s when there were a lot of people in the USA trying to beat Bailey/Stanley at their own game

Scrit

 

[Alf]

I'm thinking much the same as Scrit, but can't get any further. I had a quick sweep through DATAMP in the hopes a patent for it might helfully leap to my eye, but no luck. Might just have missed it, mind you (there were 111 of them). Despite the hilarity, you'd have a better chance of getting an answer if this was on the hand tools board. I'd avoid doing anything to it until you find out more, just in case...

Cheers, Alf

 

[Scrit]

Actually, that's a point. Are there any patent dates on the plane? As Alf says, don't do anything with it until you can identify it.

Scrit

 

[WellsWood]

Alf, yes you're right of course, thanks for pointing that out. Actually until you mentioned it I didn't realised I hadn't posted this in hand tools - hence my opening sentence. Must have that second beer :wink: Would one of you lovely moderators please move it?

Not sure what you mean by "just in case", I kind of hope it doesn't turn out to be a "hidden rembrandt" as the gift of it was jokingly conditional on me NOT selling it for hundreds of pounds on Ebay.

I'm surprised neither you nor Scrit could identify it straight away (I know, it's early yet), that just makes me want to know it's origins even more.

Mark

 

[WellsWood]

Actually, that's a point. Are there any patent dates on the plane? As Alf says, don't do anything with it until you can identify it.

Scrit

No, nothing at all, I expected something on the body like on both my other planes but the only markings of any kind are what you can see in the pics.

Does this type of frog/blade support evn have a name that anyone's aware of? I'm familiar with Bailey and bedrock, but everything else is a bit hocus-pocus to me.

Mark

 

[Scrit]

In the dim and distant past I used to own a set of P-TAMPIA and I can't recall seeing a frog design in either volume like that one. It's the "sort of" lateral adjusters that mystify me. The side shape is very reminiscent of the Bailey planes introduced from the late 1850s onwards, but the base of the knob and rear handle (tote) in the casting look more modern to me as they are raised, presumably for extra strength. My interest in the patent date is because if it has one it is likely to be a production plane (not to mention dating the plane within a 17 or so year span and allowing a patent search to be done). The quality of design and finish certainly seems to say "production" or at least patternmaker-made "prototype" to me. Personally I'm inclined to think American because of the blade adjuster. British makers such as Spiers, Norris, Preston, Marples, et al were very late to introduce adjusters onto planes and when they did it was generally just a copy of the Bailey types, although Norris were of course the exception. The British firms were selling into a "time-served" market whereas the joinery trades in America from 1860 to 1900 expanded exponentially and tended to have many more relatively untrained individuals to whom an adjuster would be a positive boon.

Scrit

 

[bugbear]

My unhelpful input is that it looks early and American.

I'd post it elsewhere if you can, e.g. woodcentral and/or woodnet.

IIRc there are/have been many "bucks" and several "ryans" in both UK and USA.

BugBear

 

[WellsWood]

My unhelpful input is that it looks early and American.

I'd post it elsewhere if you can, e.g. woodcentral and/or woodnet.
BugBear

Not unhelpful at all. Any knowledgable opinion may give weight to that theory, since an American origin is starting to look more and more likely.

For those that are interested I'll expand that with what I've turned up so far.
The plane was given to me a few days ago by a close friend who picked it out of his deceased uncle's belongings we he passed away last year. My friend did this with me in mind, he said, because he thought I might make use of it.
Although uncle Rex had been the owner, it is considered to be very unlikely he ever used it, apparently not being "handy" at all and having no interest in anything crafty. Rex though, had an uncle, Will, who was very successful as a builder in Australia around the turn of the 19th century. Will in turn had an uncle who had worked as a metal setter (not my words) in Canada for some time in the second half of the 1800s.
Now this is where conjecture takes over and evidence becomes tenuous.

One of the unusual features of the plane is that there is only one screw holding the tote on, the heel of the tote being located on a cylindrical stub on the casting. Trawling around the web for clues, I came across a mention of Luis G. Rodier of Massachusetts (not far from Canada - see where this is going yet?). Rodiers 1879 patent involved a plane with an adjuster which rocked the blade to adjust the angle and set simultaneously, a not dissimilar concept to that employed on mine, it also had the single screw tote (as did this one by C.C.Harlow, same time same place). Rodier was known to buy his irons from Buck brothers.
Now I'm not saying for a minute that this means mine was made by Rodier, but it seems possible that it was made around the same time where similar design influences were prevalent.
So we have reasonable cause to think it's late 1800s American, and a plausible route of ownership.
Sadly this may prove to be a fly in the ointment since it's clearly marked "Buck 242 Tottenham Court Rd". The speil on the accompanying page includes:

I am not sure who made it. It is not Spiers. I have seen another larger Buck in this style as well. Buck sourced planes from all the top makers so it is hard to say for sure if you don't recognize the plane

All of which leads inevitably to the pipe dream caused by reading this.
Even a fraction of which would go a long way towards some nice new LNs to practice with :wink: [-o<

Mark

 

[Glen C]

Being a self confessed machine-head I 'm surprised to find myself posting in this neck of the woods, but can any of you good people identify this?Mark

This is a fairly uncommon plane. It’s a Davis Iron Jack Plane made in the U.S. by the Davis Level & Tool Company (1867 - 1892). Davis only made 4 types of iron planes -- a jointer, jack, smoother, and block plane. They made their last bench plane around 1884, but continued making their block plane until 1892.

The blade and cap iron are not original, but replacements. Very nice find.

 

[Anonymous]

Mark, this plane is identicial to the Rodier patent planes manufactured by Laflin. I'm not sure the blade is original to the plane but, according to Patrick Leech, there were only a handful of known examples so who knows?
I would suggest you contact Pat Leech and ask him.

Oops, Glen posted while I was writing this. I'll defer to him.

 

[bugbear]

Of course, once you know the name, googling's easy...

http://www.davistownmuseum.org/InfoDavisTools2.html

http://www.patented-antiques.com/Backpa ... planes.htm

BugBear

 

[WellsWood]

Thankyou very much everybody, I have to say I'm quite blown over once again by how much info one can get on something this obscure in such a short time - the wonders of technology eh?

Roger, don't know Pat Leech, (should I?) so you lost me there. I take it he's something of an authority, do have contact details by any chance?

Glen, if you knew all this without looking it up all I can say is a big thank you and you need to get out more. :wink:

Question now is what do I do with it, were they actually any good as planes, i.e. is it worth renovating and using (I suspect not), or is it's only value as a museum/collectors piece? If the latter, anybody care to hazard a guess as to it's value?

Mark

 

[Alf]

Ack, if only I'd looked in the right part of the DATAMP #-o - ici. Nice one, Glen. =D>

Mark, Pat Leach can be contacted via http://www.supertool.com.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Rob Lee]

Hi -

Here's the block....

http://www.leevalley.com/home/temprl/1078.jpg

Cheers -

Rob

 

[Glen C]

Glen, if you knew all this without looking it up all I can say is a big thank you and you need to get out more. :wink: Mark

I wish. I thought I recognized the plane, then looked up the details. The getting out more suggestion is a good one, though. :lol:

This is a fairly fragile plane and is often found with a crack at the screw hole in the middle of the bridge. I wouldn't recommend it as a user. It's also more valuable than the run-of the-mill plane, even without the original cap iron and blade. I don't know what it's worth, though.

Alf -- thanks.

Cheers.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Mark! Thanks for livening up our day. Very cool find!

 

[WellsWood]

My pleasure Roger, and it was a pleasure too - most interesting day I've had for a while. I didn't need to do all the research of course, I could have sat back and waited, but I'm glad I did because I gained a little insight into N.American industry in that era. A subject I had never crossed paths with, so to speak, before this morning.

As for a cool find, yes I suppose it is, but not technically mine except in as far as starting this thread. We have to figure out what best to do with it now. If it turns out to have any substantial monetary value I have to do the decent thing and return it to my good friend whence it came, since he (nor I) had any inkling it was even at all unusual at the time of the gift. One thing seems certain, it's unlikely ever to be used in anger again, not by me following Glens advice, and certainly not by my friend who has no interest in WW.
Since neither of us are collectors (that slope's far too slippery) there doesn't seem to be any point in hanging on to it. And yet somehow it doesn't feel right to simply sell it for the highest gain despite the fact that 's probably the best way to secure the best new home for it. I am at a loss to explain why I feel this way, maybe I was a philanthropist in a former life who knows.
If anyone's got a suggestion as to what to do next I'm all ears.

Anyway, if it wasn't just me who got something out of this little mystery then it's been worthwhile already.

Cheers
Mark