just seen your recent edit - none of this is about me telling my son what to do, its about helping him make the right decision. As for the lecturers, from what I've heard I'm not sure they are always the best people for advice. The best people for advice clearly are the people that dish out the jobs ie the industry concerned. Did you read the article? its all explained there.
Uni Education and student loans
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Cheshirechappie
Established Member
Life can be a strange business. As someone once said, "There's no such thing as a career path. It's crazy paving, and you lay it yourself."
If your lad is set on a career in the computer games industry, he might achieve his ambition. However, are today's skills going to sustain him for a lifetime? My abiding passion as a young undergraduate of Mechanical Engineering was machine tools - but by the time I graduated, the British machine tool industry was declining so fast it was almost disappearing altogether. However, the broader-based degree subject won me a start in another branch of engineering - and I did get to play about with machine tools later in a hobby capacity, so that itch did get scratched!
Maybe there's a lesson there; studying Computer Science would give him more employment options without closing off his ambition in the games industry. There's nothing to say he can't keep up his interest whilst gaining a broader degree, either.
Sadly, many youngsters at school are told that they can be anything they want to be. It can come as a shock to some that they can only be what their abilities allow and what someone else is willing to pay for - so the broader their qualifications and abilities, the more choice they're likely to have in the jobs market.
If your lad is set on a career in the computer games industry, he might achieve his ambition. However, are today's skills going to sustain him for a lifetime? My abiding passion as a young undergraduate of Mechanical Engineering was machine tools - but by the time I graduated, the British machine tool industry was declining so fast it was almost disappearing altogether. However, the broader-based degree subject won me a start in another branch of engineering - and I did get to play about with machine tools later in a hobby capacity, so that itch did get scratched!
Maybe there's a lesson there; studying Computer Science would give him more employment options without closing off his ambition in the games industry. There's nothing to say he can't keep up his interest whilst gaining a broader degree, either.
Sadly, many youngsters at school are told that they can be anything they want to be. It can come as a shock to some that they can only be what their abilities allow and what someone else is willing to pay for - so the broader their qualifications and abilities, the more choice they're likely to have in the jobs market.
finneyb
Established Member
Jacob":m26z8r2d said:
Lecturers experience will be limited to education. You need people with experience of the work environment he wants if the advice is to be useful. Therefore seek advice from someone/company who is in the type of job/ area of work he wants at the level he aspires to.
Brian
This year I finished paying off my student loan, and have a job and career that if I hadn't gone to uni I wouldn't have.
I studied environmental science, left uni and became a chartered accountant, and am now an information security specialist.
I got a part scholarship to uni so didn't have the full debt, but also made sure I positioned myself to be employable and employed
Lots of people I graduated with waited until they finished to start applying for jobs, and then complained that the careers service hadn't helped them walk into the job their degree entitled them too.
While I'd wanted to work in my field, I was graduating in 2008, and finding a job would be tough let alone a graduate job. So in penultimate year I applied for internships with big 4. Passed the recruitment centre, and then got to rotate around the firm trying roles in different departments until I found the one I liked best. I left the internship with a graduate offer which took a lot of the pressure off final year.
That internship was only available to undergraduates, as were the others I applied for.( I think some now do a school leaver equivalent though)
I then joined the graduate scheme, but elected to also study accountancy exams whilst there to give me the business knowledge. They were tough, more exams that I didn't need to do, but gave me the knowledge and another tick on my cv. Since then I've done a further 5 specific information security qualifications and am studying for 2 more currently.
Why is this relevant? Whilst picking a worthwhile degree subject should be the intention it doesn't constrain future options. Having a degree opens up the door to graduate schemes at a number of employers, and having this option makes it worth it IMO.
Importantly it will demonstrate an ability to work independently, critical thinking, and produce output to deadlines which are things employers will look for. It won't teach you drive, dedication and flexibility though which are key for getting you in front of that employer with enough to make you stand out.
If you have kids in uni now, what are they doing to sort themselves out with a job when they graduate? If they're doing a degree with a specific job in mind are they actively trying to gain experience while they study? At Uni I got by working 30 hours a week, in my job I've done that much in 2 days. Using the free time at uni to work towards something is important.
Uni was also a great time, and a chance to spend 3-4 years postponing full adulthood. I had no parental support due to having a complicated family, and it gave me a chance to get set up, but also made sure I had something sorted for when I finished as I had nowhere to go back to.
If I had the time again I wouldn't hesitate to go to uni, the debt was big but not onerous as it comes out of your pay at an affordable rate.
Regarding getting into the computer game industry, a few years back they were calling for people to study maths and physics and learn to code on the side rather than doing media or IT degrees. Really difficult industry to get into though as it's somewhat of an IT nirvana for a lot of people.
The degree won't be enough, an all consuming passion will be needed to succeed
I studied environmental science, left uni and became a chartered accountant, and am now an information security specialist.
I got a part scholarship to uni so didn't have the full debt, but also made sure I positioned myself to be employable and employed
Lots of people I graduated with waited until they finished to start applying for jobs, and then complained that the careers service hadn't helped them walk into the job their degree entitled them too.
While I'd wanted to work in my field, I was graduating in 2008, and finding a job would be tough let alone a graduate job. So in penultimate year I applied for internships with big 4. Passed the recruitment centre, and then got to rotate around the firm trying roles in different departments until I found the one I liked best. I left the internship with a graduate offer which took a lot of the pressure off final year.
That internship was only available to undergraduates, as were the others I applied for.( I think some now do a school leaver equivalent though)
I then joined the graduate scheme, but elected to also study accountancy exams whilst there to give me the business knowledge. They were tough, more exams that I didn't need to do, but gave me the knowledge and another tick on my cv. Since then I've done a further 5 specific information security qualifications and am studying for 2 more currently.
Why is this relevant? Whilst picking a worthwhile degree subject should be the intention it doesn't constrain future options. Having a degree opens up the door to graduate schemes at a number of employers, and having this option makes it worth it IMO.
Importantly it will demonstrate an ability to work independently, critical thinking, and produce output to deadlines which are things employers will look for. It won't teach you drive, dedication and flexibility though which are key for getting you in front of that employer with enough to make you stand out.
If you have kids in uni now, what are they doing to sort themselves out with a job when they graduate? If they're doing a degree with a specific job in mind are they actively trying to gain experience while they study? At Uni I got by working 30 hours a week, in my job I've done that much in 2 days. Using the free time at uni to work towards something is important.
Uni was also a great time, and a chance to spend 3-4 years postponing full adulthood. I had no parental support due to having a complicated family, and it gave me a chance to get set up, but also made sure I had something sorted for when I finished as I had nowhere to go back to.
If I had the time again I wouldn't hesitate to go to uni, the debt was big but not onerous as it comes out of your pay at an affordable rate.
Regarding getting into the computer game industry, a few years back they were calling for people to study maths and physics and learn to code on the side rather than doing media or IT degrees. Really difficult industry to get into though as it's somewhat of an IT nirvana for a lot of people.
The degree won't be enough, an all consuming passion will be needed to succeed
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Tom's story above is very interesting and I'm sure that many others would tell a similarly meandering tale!finneyb":21howg52 said:
The best people to consult about your lad's course would be ex grads of the same course - difficult to track down, but not impossible. Next best his lecturers and other educational advisers.
Higher education opens doors - it's not just about getting a particular job, it can be a step into the unknown.
My grandson is doing French and Geography as a degree. Which employer would give positive advice on these as employment prospects?
I've no idea, neither has he, but I'm certain that in a year or so he will be doing something interesting, worthwhile and possibly well paid (or with prospects at least!)
two very good points Tom - my degree was in a subject that many would argue is the exemplar of impractical subjects (philosophy) but I was able to sustain a successful (non-academic!) career largely based on the thinking skills I developed and the confidence I got from doing well at degree level when I had done rather poorly at school.--Tom--":1yc219w8 said:
I would never try and dissuade anyone from doing any training in a subject they are passionate about for the same reason - I think the non-financial benefits are a reason on their own - however, I have asked myself recently whether I would taken the same path if I'd had to borrow 50k in order to participate, and what my life might have been like if I had not. I do not know the answer, and I am very grateful I did not have to consider it at the time.
Re. borrowing £50K for the course, despite parents and students apprehensions about accruing such a large debt, lecturers push very hard that it is a mechanism to gain Uni education and that it will be written off in 30 yrs time so go forward on that basis ie dont treat it as a debt as such. I'm not sure I agree that this is a good thing to teach young people. Others will say the system is what it is and without it you wont get Uni education so just go with it anyway and I can see that point of view as well. The other thing is over 30yrs is goalposts can be moved so the current rules may change in the future and not necessarily to the students advantage.
I could not disagree more with what Jacob here says generally - seems obvious to me the system is a bit broken and no education should be taken just for educations sake unless it is FOC. In the real world Uni education relates directly to future employment and earning money (or it should do) therefore it IS the employers that are the best ones to consult on what qualifications are most useful.
I could not disagree more with what Jacob here says generally - seems obvious to me the system is a bit broken and no education should be taken just for educations sake unless it is FOC. In the real world Uni education relates directly to future employment and earning money (or it should do) therefore it IS the employers that are the best ones to consult on what qualifications are most useful.
lurker
Le dullard de la commune
I come into this late, put off by Jacob & Roger with their handbags.
Up until 6 months go, part of my job was to mentor engineering graduates in the Nuclear business.
As the company was well known for progressing graduates, we always had 100 times the applicants to annual intake places.
It was a forgone conclusion you had a "good" degree from a "good" university to even make the first cut. So you spend 3-4 years just to ensure the application form does not go in the bin 10 minutes after it has been opened and scan read for the first time. Other than that its of little interest.
5 years ago, we had a drop out rate considered to be too high. So HR had the selection removed from their remit, and it was put under a team of old gits like me and the drop outs fell to virtually nil.
I (who never did Uni full time, wasn't done in my day: day release only!) was entirely responsible for the second cut: whittling the applications from around 300 to 50 who would be called for an interview.
This took me maybe 4 hours a year, all I did was look for something beyond the qualifications, this mainly consisted to some evidence of work experience and not just for a few months to make their cv look good.
What it was is not important, we were just looking for signs of self discipline and application, and even an ability to get yourself to work on time.
It was fairly easy to sniff out the BS ers at that stage or during the first interview.
I recall one lad who stated he had rebuilt a Morris Minor, this was the sort of stuff we the interviewers were interested in. Unfortunately for him, one of the interview panel was an enthusiast and it was immediately obvious it was not true, he was shown the door in double quick time.
Up until 6 months go, part of my job was to mentor engineering graduates in the Nuclear business.
As the company was well known for progressing graduates, we always had 100 times the applicants to annual intake places.
It was a forgone conclusion you had a "good" degree from a "good" university to even make the first cut. So you spend 3-4 years just to ensure the application form does not go in the bin 10 minutes after it has been opened and scan read for the first time. Other than that its of little interest.
5 years ago, we had a drop out rate considered to be too high. So HR had the selection removed from their remit, and it was put under a team of old gits like me and the drop outs fell to virtually nil.
I (who never did Uni full time, wasn't done in my day: day release only!) was entirely responsible for the second cut: whittling the applications from around 300 to 50 who would be called for an interview.
This took me maybe 4 hours a year, all I did was look for something beyond the qualifications, this mainly consisted to some evidence of work experience and not just for a few months to make their cv look good.
What it was is not important, we were just looking for signs of self discipline and application, and even an ability to get yourself to work on time.
It was fairly easy to sniff out the BS ers at that stage or during the first interview.
I recall one lad who stated he had rebuilt a Morris Minor, this was the sort of stuff we the interviewers were interested in. Unfortunately for him, one of the interview panel was an enthusiast and it was immediately obvious it was not true, he was shown the door in double quick time.
Rhyolith
Established Member
Thank you for bringing this up, as someone who just came out of Uni I can really relate to a lot of what people have said. I ceratinly agree there is a problem with the the education system... a serious one! I could go on about it for days actaully :|
Firstly, those who say to ingore the colleges telling students to go to Uni are totally right. They are seriously bias! The majority (if not all) of the teachers would have gone to Uni so are likely to want to encourage their students to go and have the same expirences they did. Then add to that the fact that the colleges performance figures are heavly based in how many of the their students go to Uni only compounds the issue.
I went to Uni because of it was presented as THE main option, every other option was vague and unclear so naturally I choose the ‘safe’ route. 4 years of suffering later I have failed my degree and have all the debt of a graduate. I was obviously not suited for acadmeic work due to my plerthera of reading and writing difficulties, but I did not have the confidence as a teenager to go for something more “risky”... as it was presented by my 6th form.
The only thing that saved me really was going here before uni: http://www.ibtc.co.uk My parents are to thank for that.
So to summaries I’d advise taking school and college opinions regarding unis with a metric ton of salt!
I think the lack of career prospects from degrees has been discussed a lot, I will just say that judging from the position of most of my friends (who mostly did quite well in their degrees, including several firsts) the posters here are correct, degrees don’t help at all with a career unless its something like medicine.
I will add two positives about Uni here though, social life and societies. Uni is the best place to make real life long friends and in my expierence this alone can make the whole thing worth it... don’t underestimated how important this is! I also learned a lot through student societies (Conservation volunteers in my case), they were ultimately more useful for my career prospects than thr course (even I think, if I had passed).
I don’t know much about computer science and CGI, but I think talking to the employers is the right thing to do. Unis and colleges have no idea whats really required in most professions in my experience.
The reason I highlight that is that I think the chasing of this outdated concept is one of the biggest issues with our education system. We are obessed with exanations testing who is “smarter” or capable... trying to find prodigy’s. Surely we would all be better served by just helping everyone be the best they can be, regardless of how “good” that best is.
Sorry for the rant phil. your post just reminded me of this trail of thought.
Firstly, those who say to ingore the colleges telling students to go to Uni are totally right. They are seriously bias! The majority (if not all) of the teachers would have gone to Uni so are likely to want to encourage their students to go and have the same expirences they did. Then add to that the fact that the colleges performance figures are heavly based in how many of the their students go to Uni only compounds the issue.
I went to Uni because of it was presented as THE main option, every other option was vague and unclear so naturally I choose the ‘safe’ route. 4 years of suffering later I have failed my degree and have all the debt of a graduate. I was obviously not suited for acadmeic work due to my plerthera of reading and writing difficulties, but I did not have the confidence as a teenager to go for something more “risky”... as it was presented by my 6th form.
The only thing that saved me really was going here before uni: http://www.ibtc.co.uk My parents are to thank for that.
So to summaries I’d advise taking school and college opinions regarding unis with a metric ton of salt!
I think the lack of career prospects from degrees has been discussed a lot, I will just say that judging from the position of most of my friends (who mostly did quite well in their degrees, including several firsts) the posters here are correct, degrees don’t help at all with a career unless its something like medicine.
I will add two positives about Uni here though, social life and societies. Uni is the best place to make real life long friends and in my expierence this alone can make the whole thing worth it... don’t underestimated how important this is! I also learned a lot through student societies (Conservation volunteers in my case), they were ultimately more useful for my career prospects than thr course (even I think, if I had passed).
I don’t know much about computer science and CGI, but I think talking to the employers is the right thing to do. Unis and colleges have no idea whats really required in most professions in my experience.
This just caught my eye and I will just go straight to the point and say it: There is no such thing as intelligence. People are equipped with mental tools that make the good at different things, some can interpret text really efficently, others can can figure out a complec equation like its 2+2... the whole thing is far to complicated to simplify down to one person being “smarter” than another.phil.p":2k6co01o said:
The reason I highlight that is that I think the chasing of this outdated concept is one of the biggest issues with our education system. We are obessed with exanations testing who is “smarter” or capable... trying to find prodigy’s. Surely we would all be better served by just helping everyone be the best they can be, regardless of how “good” that best is.
Sorry for the rant phil. your post just reminded me of this trail of thought.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
The point wasn't intelligence, it was degrees. The chap was just making a point that sixty years later 50% of the population aren't suddenly any smarter than 7% were then. It's the exams that have changed - look at a 100 year old eleven plus paper.
... People are equipped with mental tools that make them good at different things ...
Of course - and we know which clown decided university was the best choice for 50% of the population.
... People are equipped with mental tools that make them good at different things ...
Of course - and we know which clown decided university was the best choice for 50% of the population.
transatlantic
Boom!
I personally felt like my degree was somewhat of a waste of time. It was very outdated, and half of it wasn't even applicable in my opinion.
Does it open doors? doubt it ... it might get you to the top of the list of potential interviews, but thats about it.
Does it open doors? doubt it ... it might get you to the top of the list of potential interviews, but thats about it.
lurker
Le dullard de la commune
Phil,
I think you will find that there was a gradual increase in the % going to Uni even before we had heard of said clown.
The UK stopped being a manufacturing nation and the only decent jobs were white collar and thus required a higher qualification ( don't ask me why!).
The problem with MPs in the past 40 years is they all did "soft" subjects, same as the civil service. Thus technology suffered, because it was beyond their comprehension, even though its been our greatest strength. France & Germany did not make this mistake.
I think you will find that there was a gradual increase in the % going to Uni even before we had heard of said clown.
The UK stopped being a manufacturing nation and the only decent jobs were white collar and thus required a higher qualification ( don't ask me why!).
The problem with MPs in the past 40 years is they all did "soft" subjects, same as the civil service. Thus technology suffered, because it was beyond their comprehension, even though its been our greatest strength. France & Germany did not make this mistake.
Rhyolith
Established Member
That point does not make sense when you consider that being "smarter" is a fallacy. Which I believe it is... or at the very least an oversimplification of reality to such an extreme it might as well be a falsehood.phil.p":3awtt9qs said:
I do though fundamentally agree with you as that too many people do degrees... or more the point academic courses. Just not for the reasons you (or the guy the article) present for it.
I imagine that less than 20% of the population are actually suited to doing academic work, less still who will be properly good at it, so 50% going in to it is a ridiculous waste of resources and talent. People will always be good at many diverse things and any good nation needs to take advantage of that... otherwise your just not using the resources you have.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
lurker":1sh7fnid said:
I believe we went for decades without a government minster who actually had qualifications in the field in which they served - it's almost as if knowing what you are doing is handicap. :lol:
bertikusmaximus
New member
Student loans aren't really a 'debt' in the same way that credit cards or loans or mortgages are, and in my opinion shouldn't be considered as such. No mortgage or credit card company have ever really asked about the student loans my wife and I have, and it hasn't prevented us getting a mortgage etc.
It is better to think of it as tax on earnings you pay until a certain age or you pay off the amount you 'borrowed'. Of course, the one caveat is that the payments don't get cancelled if you drop out. For example, say you do one year and borrow £9,000 but then drop out of uni to go and work in a job paying £20,000. That would be over the threshold for repayments you'd begin to be 'taxed', which on a low salary could be problematic.
It is better to think of it as tax on earnings you pay until a certain age or you pay off the amount you 'borrowed'. Of course, the one caveat is that the payments don't get cancelled if you drop out. For example, say you do one year and borrow £9,000 but then drop out of uni to go and work in a job paying £20,000. That would be over the threshold for repayments you'd begin to be 'taxed', which on a low salary could be problematic.
