Type of tool steel.

[maltrout512]

I have been looking into buying a set of bevel chisels, only because I can't get any more machinery in the workshop . Now I have seen a set of bevel chisels I think in Tool Heaven, but they are a little out of my price bracket although they are very nice. Anyway I can get a set of Record bevel chisels for a sensible price. The only thing that is niggling me is the type / quality / grade of the steel that they use. It is not listed in the catalog. Is there anyone that can help. Many Thanks.

 

[jonbikebod]

Hi Malcolm,
Chisels seem to be a rather personal thing and the kind of work you do has a lot of bearing on what you choose. For example the chisels I use on site are rather different to my bench chisels which are used quite differently. Of the ‘carpentry’ chisels, the quality has been variable for some years with the newer products tending to be worse the younger they are. Cabinet bench chisels have conversely improved dramatically over the last few years.
I bought one of most makes of chisel to determine which I preferred for the various tasks. This was my conclusion.
If you are after cabinet making bench chisels the best value are Ashley isles, the Lie-Nielson are better but more expensive. There are now the Blue Spruce which are more expensive again and appeal to a specific market, being as much three dimensional art as a functioning tool.
Of the carpentry chisels I was very disappointed with Footprint and Marples. The ‘Record’ chisels you mention are from the same parent company and so likely use the same blade, if not made in the same factory. These are made from high carbon tool steel but not well heat treated or ever found with the diamond imprint indicative of hardness Testing. Modern Sandvick chisels also seem too soft (old ones are great). The best ‘site’ chisels I found were the Stanley dyna grip pro. I suspect these are now out of production but they are still around. Robert Sorby. Like Ashley Isles do monitor the hardness of the steel. The former make a wide range of chisels but I have always found they need a lot of work to flatten the backs.
This brings us to the most important point – the work you intend doing with them. You need a very fine edge if you are paring dovetails down to a knife line and thick sides to register in the slot if you are chopping end grain of a mortise. The geometry of the cutting edge is very different as are the handles. There isn’t a universal chisel. Just various compromises so you need to narrow down your intended use if you are to end up happy with your chisels.
You will also need a good sharpening system if you are ever going to do decent work with them.
I am not trying to confuse you with all this just sometimes there isn’t the simple answer one would suppose.
Jon.

 

[head clansman]

Hi jom

IMHO There is only one , old marples , with boxwood handles, look on flee bay , take your time there are still very good chisel you can buy there , usually for a small price. hc

 

[jonbikebod]

Good point HC the best old cast steel chisels are well worth tracking down and potentially a very cost effective way of getting a nice set of chisels. You can’t tell if the backs are deeply rust pitted or convex through years of ‘flattening’ on a curved oil stone on eBay but if the are cheap enough it is worth the risk. The old Stanley socketed 750 series were very good but rare on this side of the pond.
I am not quite sure why Malcolm wanted bevel edged chisels, maybe because most new chisels are; older chisels were more commonly non bevelled firmer type. These are fine for most things excluding dovetails but I get the impression he would more likely cut those by machine…
Jon.

 

[wizer]

Take a look at Footprint's range of Chisels from Thomas Flynn. I have heard good things about these and I think if I'd known about them when buying my Kirchen's I would have gone in that direction. That's not to say the Kirchen's are not good, but the Footprint's seem to have a better edge (in more ways than one)

Edit: https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... hp?t=28318

 

[Harbo]

Garret Hack swears by his set of red plastic handled BAHCO's which I think somebody has started selling again in the UK?
The steel is supposed to be excellent?

Rod

 

[wizer]

Garret Hack swears by his set of red plastic handled BAHCO's which I think somebody has started selling again in the UK?
The steel is supposed to be excellent?

Rod

workshop Heaven and Thomas Flynn sell them

 

[joiner_sim]

I like using my IRWIN Marples chisels, sharpening up with a diamond stone.

 

[jonbikebod]

Getting back to the steel used, the best for retaining a truly sharp cutting edge that I have found are the L-N which are Rockwell 60 – 62 A2 and cryogenically tempered. I haven’t tried Blue Spruce but they use the same stuff.
Kirschen use their own high carbon steel, don’t quote a figure for harness. In many tests these have come top for retaining their cutting edge although these were before any A2 chisels were available. The polish is achieved by tumbling the blades with ceramic particles and this tends to round the arris between the back and sides. You can therefore never achieve a really sharp right angled corner but these chisels are better suited to heavier work anyway. I didn’t like the way the steel striking buttons put dents in my mallet but clearly that isn’t the way they were supposed to be treated either.
Stanley Dynagrip pro have their blades made of EN 31 ‘ball bearing’ steel. Again, no harness quoted but they do hold an edge better than most.
Bahaco quote Rockwell 57 – 59 for their re-introduced red handled, high carbon chisels. The Swedes should know a thing or two about steel as even our proud crucible cast steel used to start off as Swedish steel. The last composite handled chisel I tried had nice flat backs but held a cutting edge like cheese. The older ones with the flat black handles (much copied as eastern chisels and sold in DIY barns) were very good and I believe the generation of chisel that got James Krenov’s seal of approval. Haven’t seen the the genuine article for sale in maybe 20 years though.
I always liked the weight of the footprint handles and coming from Sheffield they should have known how to heat treat the carbon steel blade but I always found them way too soft. Not sure if this was through design or poor quality control.
I paid £20 fifteen years ago for a Marples with the orange shatterproof handle. Again the carbon steel was way too soft but now it is about an inch shorter it is improving. This suggests it was overcooked during tempering. Sheffield has trades on its former glories for too long. I could re-harden and re-temper it but I shouldn’t need to.
But like I said in my original reply, chisels are very subjective things. Some like to write with a fountain pen, others prefer a biro. At the end of the day you want something you feel comfortable with that will allow you to do your best work. There has never been a better time in living memory that so many quality chisel have been available. There are still some lemons out there though.
Jon.

 

[yetloh]

Have you considered Japanese chisels? I have been using them for years and have found them very hard to beat from the point of view of the edge they will take and the time the edge lasts. I have a set of very expensive ones from Classic Hand tools and also some reasonably priced Iyoroi brand chisels from Axminster. The former are a joy to use and to behold but only very marginally better as a functional tool.

Jim

 

[ivan]

I was under the impression that since Record was taken over by Irwin the Sheffield end had closed and all prduction moved to China?

FW magazine liked the Footprints, still UK made, better than Marples (Record). Anant (India?) at about 2.50 each are quite OK for building jobs and softwood carpentry, including opening tins...

Iyoroi are not what they were, FW likes Matsumura from Japan Woodworker, I have some of his parers, very nice, but importing from their USA website will cost a bit more now at $1.40 to £, last year it was over $2, so a bargain.

 

[jonbikebod]

Good point Jim.
I think it is fair to say Japanese hand tools are something of an acquired taste. The saws are probably the most popular in the west followed by the chisels and then the planes.
The steel of the cutting edge is extremely hard. I have seen them quoted as high as 67 Rockwell. While this will hold a good edge under ideal condition and the soft wood most Japanese items are made from it is also very brittle. They are intended to be sharpened by hand with only one bevel. They can be difficult to hold in a honing guide if you wished to apply a more obtuse secondary bevel. They can also require a lot of work when new which is fine if you want to get into the Zen thing though along with these other reasons I don’t think I would recommend them as a first and only set of chisels. Also the really good ones are very expensive.
I had heard the Japanese chisels stocked by Axminster are laminated by heating them and then running the two pieces of steel through rollers rather than being hammered together in the traditional forge welding method. This leaves the tool with internal stresses that tend to make the blade bend in later life. I have had a couple of these for maybe ten years and not noticed a problem. I do like the balance – very similar to the L-N but don’t often reach for them unless I am working in softwood.
Jon.

 

[woodbloke]

I have a copy of FW from 'murrica on a comprehsive test on chisels...LN come out 'Best on Test', including offerings from the Far East - Rob

 

[ivan]

There was an earlier FW test (before issue 90, well before LN, I have it in the 1st "Best of FW" book series) that included Iyoroi Marples Footprint etc. The 2 Japanese came top and Footprint was chosen for the best western chisel.

 

[yetloh]

Hadn't heard about the way in which the Axminster japanese chisels are made and having had my Iyoroi items for some years I can't comment on current quality. I certainly have not had any problems with mine. I sharpen mine using the Veritas Mark II guide which seems to work well. I agree that the the edge can be brittle but of course that is part of the trade off between edge quality and the ability to withstand abuse.

If anyone has some money to splash out on something special, buy the biggest best quality Japanese paring chisel you can find. They are a complete joy to use for anyone who really appreciates hand tools. You will be surprised how often you reach for it.

Jim

 

[jonbikebod]

There certainly were very dark days of chisel availability 10 – 20 years ago when it seemed the only new chisels available that could be got really sharp and stayed sharp came from Japan. I didn’t subscribe to a mag back then but it certainly seemed to be the general consensus.
It does cheer my up that Footprint are now getting good reviews I wondered if they deliberately tempered the steel on the soft side so they wouldn’t snap when used to lever off paint can lids and the like. Everything else about them is good for a ‘site’ chisel.
In bench chisels, Ashley isles should be applauded for continuing to listen, improve while staying affordable.
I have to agree that my favourite bench chisels by far are my L-Ns. Just love using them and even look forward to using them in a project. I also love the fine size increases as my dovetails tend to come out odd sizes.
I didn’t get the impression they were the type of chisels Malcolm was after though.
Jon.