Tricoya for box sash

[johnnyb]

my understanding of that is old growth timber was exhausted a long time ago in Europe ( less so in america)
I've certainly seen oak sills on sashes not rot like softwood but break down and weather away.
pinus strobus heartwood is genetically identical to heartwood 150 years ago. what's changed?
I think its wrong to imagine resources weren't farmed and exploited back then. France famously planting oaks for shipbuilding(Britain had timber from the colonies)
the reason sheffield steel used iron from Sweden was because Sweden still had timber for charcoal(and quality ore) the only way to get steel with few impurities was to use charcoal. uk had used its own supply many years ago. hence why Abraham darby's discovery helped reignite the iron industry(albeit for non tools being to full of impurities)

 

[Jacob]

my understanding of that is old growth timber was exhausted a long time ago in Europe ( less so in america)
I've certainly seen oak sills on sashes not rot like softwood but break down and weather away.
pinus strobus heartwood is genetically identical to heartwood 150 years ago. what's changed?
I think its wrong to imagine resources weren't farmed and exploited back then. France famously planting oaks for shipbuilding(Britain had timber from the colonies)

Oak was planted and conserved here too - for church, navy and for charcoal around areas of early iron works.

"Forest management and conservation are long established practices - see 'The History of the Countryside' by Oliver Rackham.
William Cobbett, in 'Rural Rides', comments often on the extent and variety of woodland in England in the early 19th century. Demand for timber was very high at this time and the abundance of woodland was due largely to traditional conservation practices.
19th century visitors to Ireland comment on the absence of trees and the bare landscape. This was due to English exploitation of the Irish forests since even before the sudden demand caused by the Great Fire of London when much rebuilding was with Irish timber. English owners of Irish land were not interested in forestry except as a short term cash source. It was often sold cheaply and there was little local demand. In earlier centuries Ireland had been known for its ancient forests but sheep, cattle and corn were more profitable and the old forests were cover for not only wolves but also the dispossessed Irish.

Tis cause enough for grieving,
Our shelter felled around us...
What shall we do for timber?
The last of the woods is down...
There's no holly nor hazel nor ash there,
The pasture's rock and stone,
The crown of the forest has withered,
And the last of the game is gone.

'Lament for the Woodlands' (Anon) from 'Lords and Commons' (Cuala Press, Dublin 1938), Frank O'Connor"

 

[Against_The_Grain]

On the subject of timber quality and "It's not what it used to be", there are a plethora of factors but one of the main culprits that often gets overlooked in these conversations is industrial timber kilning which became much more prevalent in the 1950s and '60s. The overwhelming vast majority of timber before this period was air-dried and took many months if not years to get down to usable levels where with kilning you could go from a tree to usable timber in a matter of weeks, and this comes with side effects.

Timber that is kiln-dried, particularly if aggressive kilning practices have been used which stresses the material greatly. The timber will be much harder and more brittle compared to its air-dried counterpart, there will be a much higher tendency for timber that warps and bows after sawing and planing, and it loses a lot of its durability. An air-dried piece of softwood is much more flexible, stable, and it retains its natural durability, compare an air-dried piece of Scots Pine and a kiln-dried piece and you will swear they were two totally different timbers with two totally different characteristics, the kiln-dried piece will deteriorate much faster than the air-dried when exposed to the elements.

An excellent book on the subject by someone who clearly has spent a good deal of their life researching and practicing the subject is "Cut and Dried" by Richard Jones.

in don't start dissing red deal.

Red deal? It really must be the 60s! I haven't heard the term "deal" for decades and probably for the better as it confused people to what they were actually getting.

I would just use solid Accoya.
I am not sure there is any advantage in using the super expensive Triccoya, unless you already have a lot of it lying about.

It's not so super expensive, at least not compared to Accoya these days which has gone through the roof.

An 8' x 4' 18mm sheet will run you back about £160, enough 8" x 1" Accoya to cover the same area is closer to £180-200, before you even start machining it.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

An excellent book on the subject by someone who clearly has spent a good deal of their life researching and practicing the subject is "Cut and Dried" by Richard Jones.

I very much appreciate the positive endorsement. Thank you. Slainte.

 

[johnnyb]

I always find red deal to be a bit moist. which is an issue for interiors as it goes like a pringle after a week.







no idea why as the American softwood are b



























nidea o

 

[johnnyb]

sorry that really annoying ad at the top seems to interfere with my posts jumbling the letters around.

 

[Ollie78]

It's not so super expensive, at least not compared to Accoya these days which has gone through the roof.

An 8' x 4' 18mm sheet will run you back about £160, enough 8" x 1" Accoya to cover the same area is closer to £180-200, before you even start machining it.

That is interesting to know, looks like the Triccoya has come down a bit since last I looked.
I haven't used Accoya for a while now since the price went bonkers.
The last few windows I did I just used Utile for everything, just because I had some, I always use it for sashes anyway but it made really nice boxes.

Ollie

 

[schnapps95]

Ha ha. I think this is a regional thing.

I worked with a Scotish fella and he would always call the staff bead "bar". As in "where is the 20mm barrr".


Ollie

I've compared bits and bobs of old and new redwood and usually there is no difference, assuming northerly sources. Saw mills would cut smaller trees for smaller timbers - so 6" floor boards would look the same whether 10 or 100 years old. But what you don't get is the larger stuff - massive boards grown from ancient virgin forest trees.

It's not a regional thing it is fact. if you were to use a manufactured board for the pully stiles how would you form the sash pocket's ? As regarding tonguing the pulley stile into the linings and using glue when making the boxes i have never done this nor have i ever seen it on old windows i have taken out and cut up for firewood. When using Accoya it is advised that you stainless steel fixing's & fastening's and when you cross cut a piece to length to seal the cut with a special paint. I found if you stainless nails they need to be annular shank ones the plain ones pull out to easy later as they don't rust like an ordinary nail. Made a few hundred box windows in a lifetime of working still at work now at 81yrs. and as to spiral balances we avoid them like the plague a sash cord is easy to renew with a spiral balance it is visit to the site measure the balance weigh the the sash order it wait a couple of weeks for delivery then go to site and fit

 

[schnapps95]

My point is that the Victorians had access to wood from old growth forests having larger trees and could exclude sapwood. Sapwood is now prevalent in commercially available redwood that comes from smaller trees grown on rotation and is known to have poor durability. The Victorians also used lead-based compounds in the joints and in finishes that were toxic to fungi (rot).

Having said that I know of redwood windows that I made 40 yrs ago that are still in good nick, but I made the sills from durable hardwood, treated the joints with preservative before assembly, and the paint's been maintained ...

In the 50s, 60s & 70s etc Redwoods used to be sold by groups 1, 2, & 3 each group was between certain latitudes ( can't remember which ) but group 1 was the best and dearest as it was nearer to the Arctic circle and therefore the timber was slower grown also it was sold by the Petrograd Standard which equates to 165 cu. ft or 4.672 cu. metres can someone check for me ? (not very good at maths)

 

[Ollie78]

@schnapps95
I was only meaning that the parts are called different names depending on region.
I agree with you about spiral balances being useless.

I have seen many ( probably hundreds) of box sashes made with the tongue and groove method in an area including Oxfordshire, Berkshire, Wiltshire, Bristol/Bath .
Maybe that is regional too? or maybe they did it during a certain period.


Ollie

 

[Jacob]

In the 50s, 60s & 70s etc Redwoods used to be sold by groups 1, 2, & 3 each group was between certain latitudes ( can't remember which ) but group 1 was the best and dearest as it was nearer to the Arctic circle and therefore the timber was slower grown also it was sold by the Petrograd Standard which equates to 165 cu. ft or 4.672 cu. metres can someone check for me ? (not very good at maths)

It is now sold with top grade "unsorted" which includes grades 1,2,3, with slight variations between Sweden, Russia, etc. Grades 4,5 would be for floor boards, skirtings etc.
"Unsorted" is very good but for some purposes you might want to sort it e.g. glazing bars need to be free of knots.
What is harder to get (but not impossible) is the very wide stuff which came from very old trees in virgin forest.
For sash windows and architectural joinery in general there is no problem.
My theory about the change from wooden windows is that it's the fault of modern paints - they are totally inferior to trad linseed oil paint. Windows rot and the wood gets the blame but it should be the paint!. I've had a lot of experiences which would back this up.
Another prob has been design; EJMA windows particularly bad, particularly the wide projecting cill, which is doomed to fail.

 

[johnnyb]

my own feeling is at some stage people starting putting stuff on the masonry face rather than sheltered and set behind masonry. even now a leaky bit of spouting can wreck woodwork in a concentrated area.

 

[Jameshow]

It's not a regional thing it is fact. if you were to use a manufactured board for the pully stiles how would you form the sash pocket's ? As regarding tonguing the pulley stile into the linings and using glue when making the boxes i have never done this nor have i ever seen it on old windows i have taken out and cut up for firewood. When using Accoya it is advised that you stainless steel fixing's & fastening's and when you cross cut a piece to length to seal the cut with a special paint. I found if you stainless nails they need to be annular shank ones the plain ones pull out to easy later as they don't rust like an ordinary nail. Made a few hundred box windows in a lifetime of working still at work now at 81yrs. and as to spiral balances we avoid them like the plague a sash cord is easy to renew with a spiral balance it is visit to the site measure the balance weigh the the sash order it wait a couple of weeks for delivery then go to site and fit

Not alot of experience then!

I have a cabinet maker in our men's shed who at 82 who is such an inspiration, what he lacks in physical strength he makes up for in wisdom!!

 

[LBCarpentry]

I shall post that cads up at some point. Good chatting

 

[Against_The_Grain]

As regarding tonguing the pulley stile into the linings and using glue when making the boxes i have never done this nor have i ever seen it on old windows i have taken out and cut up for firewood.

Possibly not something you would encounter up North where joinery was often more utilitarian in the Victorian era as compared to the joinery in the south of the country. I've seen it on very old examples and in a few books (George Ellis' "Modern Practical Joinery being a notable example) it is listed as the "superior" method of assembling the box.

 

[Doug71]

Possibly not something you would encounter up North where joinery was often more utilitarian in the Victorian era as compared to the joinery in the south of the country. I've seen it on very old examples and in a few books (George Ellis' "Modern Practical Joinery being a notable example) it is listed as the "superior" method of assembling the box.

You could be right as I'm up North (ish) and we used to just butt the pulley stiles to the linings, we would prime the joints then just bang in some 1 1/2" ovals (being careful not to hit the pockets).

I do tend to use the "superior" method now.

 

[Jacob]

You could be right as I'm up North (ish) and we used to just butt the pulley stiles to the linings, we would prime the joints then just bang in some 1 1/2" ovals (being careful not to hit the pockets).

I do tend to use the "superior" method now.

Same here. One reason you might not see tongues and grooves is that it tended to be later - Edwardian etc and hence still in good nick not needing replacement, or only on posh houses.

 

[Oakay]

That is interesting to know, looks like the Triccoya has come down a bit since last I looked.
I haven't used Accoya for a while now since the price went bonkers.
The last few windows I did I just used Utile for everything, just because I had some, I always use it for sashes anyway but it made really nice boxes.

Ollie

'Since Accoya price went bonkers' Hmm, agreed, it has seemed to me that the Accoya product has been all about making a lot of money for the wealthy few all along. Several years ago I invested in the company when, if I remember correctly, the Lib Dem politician Nick Clegg was on the board. I remember how robbed I felt when the share price plummetted and I and many private investors lost significant sums for trying to do the right thing and support a product which should help the environment (in this case by achieving long-life service from a fast growing non-durable timber type.) I have since changed my mind about Accoya's 'green' credentials because of the huge amounts of energy required in its manufacture. If a prominent politician is on the board of a company, watch out, they sure know how to make a bob or two out of an honest punter.

 

[Ollie78]

.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Saplen is a competitive timber to Accoya, it’s thermally modified beech which boasts the same durability characteristics as Accoya for half the price.

I haven’t tried it myself but a few people rage on about it.