Tricoya for box sash

[LBCarpentry]

Saplen is a competitive timber to Accoya, it’s thermally modified beech which boasts the same durability characteristics as Accoya for half the price.

I haven’t tried it myself but a few people rage on about it.

And it’s used successfully for external joinery??

 

[LBCarpentry]

'Since Accoya price went bonkers' Hmm, agreed, it has seemed to me that the Accoya product has been all about making a lot of money for the wealthy few all along. Several years ago I invested in the company when, if I remember correctly, the Lib Dem politician Nick Clegg was on the board. I remember how robbed I felt when the share price plummetted and I and many private investors lost significant sums for trying to do the right thing and support a product which should help the environment (in this case by achieving long-life service from a fast growing non-durable timber type.) I have since changed my mind about Accoya's 'green' credentials because of the huge amounts of energy required in its manufacture. If a prominent politician is on the board of a company, watch out, they sure know how to make a bob or two out of an honest punter.

It’s grown in New Zealand to start with so it’s very first journey over to Holland where it’s treated is a bit of an eye brow raiser. However, I use it for its lack of swelling and ease of machining. Almost as good as laminated softwood

 

[LBCarpentry]

Possibly not something you would encounter up North where joinery was often more utilitarian in the Victorian era as compared to the joinery in the south of the country. I've seen it on very old examples and in a few books (George Ellis' "Modern Practical Joinery being a notable example) it is listed as the "superior" method of assembling the box.

It is actually easier to cut 5mm deep housing / channel and then assemble. Butt jointing requires a lot of faff lining up by hand or with use of a jig. I actually think domino would be the longest method time wise

 

[LBCarpentry]

Yes it is tedious how Accoya seem to put prices up every 4 months. Especially as we brought into the whole thing years ago and kind of based our USP around it. It’s plastered all over our website and we push hard for its use. Maybe I’ll start quoting in lam softwood again. I have always found that the most enjoyable to work with from start to finish.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

And it’s used successfully for external joinery??

From what I've seen, yes. A big bonus is that it doesn't rot out all your ironmongery in time as it's a thermal modification rather than a chemical one like the Accoya which leaves a lot of acetic acid in the timber. It's also a consistent dark brown colour throughout, where the Accoya is black for the first few millimeters and lighter on the inside, combined with stick marks all over it which can make clear-finishing a nightmare.

 

[schnapps95]

It is now sold with top grade "unsorted" which includes grades 1,2,3, with slight variations between Sweden, Russia, etc. Grades 4,5 would be for floor boards, skirtings etc.
"Unsorted" is very good but for some purposes you might want to sort it e.g. glazing bars need to be free of knots.
What is harder to get (but not impossible) is the very wide stuff which came from very old trees in virgin forest.
For sash windows and architectural joinery in general there is no problem.
My theory about the change from wooden windows is that it's the fault of modern paints - they are totally inferior to trad linseed oil paint. Windows rot and the wood gets the blame but it should be the paint!. I've had a lot of experiences which would back this up.
Another prob has been design; EJMA windows particularly bad, particularly the wide projecting cill, which is doomed to fail.

I maybe didn't explain it very well, the groups were between certain latitudes. Then each group was divide, as you say unsorted etc. The timber reps would normally call No1 upper gulf and No3 lower gulf and so on with the gulf being THE GULF of BOTHNIA. Years ago, up the coast of Sweden, books were produced called Shipping Marks on Timber. The earliest one I have is 1920 and the newest 1970. Included in each publication, it told you which mill produced which brand and in what sizes. Most marks, but not all, contained a crown, which signified unsorted. The Russian (USSR) marks were the easiest to understand. Here is an example: E**AR. Within this mark, E stood for exportals. The astericks represented the quality and grade of the wood being replaced by other symbols depending on the standard. The final letter(s) denotated where the timber originated from, in this case Archangle. IG stood for Igarka, L for Leningrad and so on. The list was 1quite long as it covered the whole of the Soviet Union.

One supplier we dealt with in the 80s, May & Hassle ltd (I think), had a special typewriter with the brands on the keys and only one lady in the office was able to use it to produce their selling lists.

P.S. Sorry, I forgot to thank you, Jacob. I collet poems about Trees & Timber and that's another one for the collection.

 

[schnapps95]

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[LBCarpentry]

From what I've seen, yes. A big bonus is that it doesn't rot out all your ironmongery in time as it's a thermal modification rather than a chemical one like the Accoya which leaves a lot of acetic acid in the timber. It's also a consistent dark brown colour throughout, where the Accoya is black for the first few millimeters and lighter on the inside, combined with stick marks all over it which can make clear-finishing a nightmare.

£2500m3 quoted

 

[Ollie78]

£2500m3 quoted

For the thermally modified Beech ?

Ollie

 

[Adam W.]

I maybe didn't explain it very well, the groups were between certain latitudes. Then each group was divide, as you say unsorted etc. The timber reps would normally call No1 upper gulf and No3 lower gulf and so on with the gulf being THE GULF of BOTHNIA. Years ago, up the coast of Sweden, books were produced called Shipping Marks on Timber. The earliest one I have is 1920 and the newest 1970. Included in each publication, it told you which mill produced which brand and in what sizes. Most marks, but not all, contained a crown, which signified unsorted. The Russian (USSR) marks were the easiest to understand. Here is an example: E**AR. Within this mark, E stood for exportals. The astericks represented the quality and grade of the wood being replaced by other symbols depending on the standard. The final letter(s) denotated where the timber originated from, in this case Archangle. IG stood for Igarka, L for Leningrad and so on. The list was 1quite long as it covered the whole of the Soviet Union.

One supplier we dealt with in the 80s, May & Hassle ltd (I think), had a special typewriter with the brands on the keys and only one lady in the office was able to use it to produce their selling lists.

P.S. Sorry, I forgot to thank you, Jacob. I collet poems about Trees & Timber and that's another one for the collection.

That's an interesting selection of books.

 

[LBCarpentry]

For the thermally modified Beech ?

Ollie

Correct

Accoya is £3500 - £4000m3 depending on stock size

 

[Ollie78]

Correct

Accoya is £3500 - £4000m3 depending on stock size

Thanks, that's good to know. Last time I bought Accoya it was just less than £3k a m3 and I was appalled at that price.
Does the Beech come in a wider range of sizes than the Accoya as well ?

Ollie

 

[deema]

A bit of a ramble, but I get to the point at the end!
In my limited experience I’ve only ever found windows to fail for a small number of reasons. I was chatting to my father yesterday, who’s now 82, and spent a lifetime as a joiner / involved with wood to see if he had any different views. We seemed to have the same views albeit from very different spans of experience. Here is the list of things we came up with.

Poor selection of wood, wrong species, too low a grade, or trying to straighten twisted timber expecting it not to subsequently twist.
Poor maintenance, this was two fold, either lack of paint / inadequate paint prep, or failure of the window seal allowing water to ingress into the recess.
Poor manufacturing, not allowing for proper run off of water, sloppy joints, inappropriate design, ie incorrect construction.
Stuck windows being force-ably open. (Usually due to either poor maintenance, incorrect installation / one of the above)

The most common failure mode seems to be broken tenon joints usually at the opening side caused by windows sticking and being forced open. Typically the lower rail of frames, sashes rots out as a consequence. Forcing a window open puts massive strain on the joint and causes the glue to break allowing water to enter the joint. The tenon cheek, being end grain sucks up the water causing the window to swell more / initiates rot. Typically it’s the lower joints that rot as water runs down. This also often results in the cill / rail directly under the affected mortice to start to rot in the corner due to the sash expanding at this point trapping water.

So, Accoya is guaranteed for 50 years above ground and is dimensionally stable. The knowledge of how to select and make windows to take into account movement had been around for hundreds of years. If you maintain the windows / prepare them correctly and choose the correct species of wood, they will also last more than 50 years. So, I don’t fully get why Accoya is so ’popular’. What is it that I’m missing? from the reason windows fail we came up with, it could suggest Accoya is compensating for loss of knowledge we used to have in how to make windows to last.

 

[Ollie78]

A bit of a ramble, but I get to the pint at the end!
In my limited experience I’ve only ever found windows to fail for a small number of reasons. I was chatting to my father yesterday, who’s now 82, and spent a lifetime as a joiner / involved with wood to see if he had any different views. We seemed to have the same views albeit from very different spans of experience. Here is the list of things we came up with.

Poor selection of wood, wrong species, too low a grade, or trying to straighten twisted timber expecting it not to subsequently twist.
Poor maintenance, this was two fold, either lack of paint / inadequate paint prep, or failure of the window seal allowing water to ingress into the recess.
Poor manufacturing, not allowing for proper run off of water, sloppy joints, inappropriate design, ie incorrect construction.
Stuck windows being force-ably open. (Usually due to either poor maintenance, incorrect installation / one of the above)

the most common failure mode seems to be broken tenon joints usually at the opening side caused by windows sticking and being forced open. Typically the lower rail of frames, sashes rots out as a consequence. Forcing a window open puts massive strain on the joint and causes the glue to break allowing water to enter the joint. The tenon cheek, being end grain sucks up the water causingbthe window to swell more / initiates rot. Typically it’s the lower joints that rot as water runs down. This also often results in the cill / rail directly under the affected mortice to start to rot in the corner due to the sash expanding at this point trapping water.

So, Accoya is guaranteed for 50 years above ground and is dimensionally stable. The knowledge of how to select and make windows to take into account movement had been around for hundreds of years. If you maintain the windows / prepare them correctly and choose the correct species of wood, they will also last more than 50 years. So, I don’t fully get why Accoya is so ’popular’. What is it that I’m missing? from the reason windows fail we came up with, it could suggest Accoya is compensating for loss of knowledge we used to have in how to make windows to last.

I would add that one of the the most common modes of failure in a lot of windows is the putty on the outside cracking ,but also the repeated condensation forming on the inside and getting in behind the glass and the moulding rebate.
I have had to repair and replace lots where the outside and inside faces looked fine but the rot had gone in under the moulding and the entire centre of the rail was mush.

The best advantage I have actually noticed about Accoya is that the paint doesn't crack as easily. I periodically go by a big door I made from it 10 years ago and the paint still looks pretty fresh.

Ollie

 

[Adam W.]

A bit of a ramble, but I get to the point at the end!
In my limited experience I’ve only ever found windows to fail for a small number of reasons. I was chatting to my father yesterday, who’s now 82, and spent a lifetime as a joiner / involved with wood to see if he had any different views. We seemed to have the same views albeit from very different spans of experience. Here is the list of things we came up with.

Poor selection of wood, wrong species, too low a grade, or trying to straighten twisted timber expecting it not to subsequently twist.
Poor maintenance, this was two fold, either lack of paint / inadequate paint prep, or failure of the window seal allowing water to ingress into the recess.
Poor manufacturing, not allowing for proper run off of water, sloppy joints, inappropriate design, ie incorrect construction.
Stuck windows being force-ably open. (Usually due to either poor maintenance, incorrect installation / one of the above)

The most common failure mode seems to be broken tenon joints usually at the opening side caused by windows sticking and being forced open. Typically the lower rail of frames, sashes rots out as a consequence. Forcing a window open puts massive strain on the joint and causes the glue to break allowing water to enter the joint. The tenon cheek, being end grain sucks up the water causing the window to swell more / initiates rot. Typically it’s the lower joints that rot as water runs down. This also often results in the cill / rail directly under the affected mortice to start to rot in the corner due to the sash expanding at this point trapping water.

So, Accoya is guaranteed for 50 years above ground and is dimensionally stable. The knowledge of how to select and make windows to take into account movement had been around for hundreds of years. If you maintain the windows / prepare them correctly and choose the correct species of wood, they will also last more than 50 years. So, I don’t fully get why Accoya is so ’popular’. What is it that I’m missing? from the reason windows fail we came up with, it could suggest Accoya is compensating for loss of knowledge we used to have in how to make windows to last.

You shouldn't have glue in a window as it doesn't last. Historically sashes were wedged and pinned for this reason.

 

[LBCarpentry]

The difference is that Accoya guarantee the timber. They will physically replace it free of charge should it rot. In this world people like guarantees. Would you guarantee every regular softwood window you ever made for 50 years against rot - Eek! Even sapele and meranti windows get swapped after 20 years in some cases

 

[TRITON]

Theres a small joiners in Glasgow called BK Joiners. Their premises are tiny and they only appear make sash windows(possibly other things, but each time I pass its only sash windows i see sitting outside) They use pine, which is a lovely smell i get each time i cycle past.
They dont use anything fancy, its standards pine, made in the traditional way.
They're based down a small lane(St Vincent's Crescent lane), and the building is maybe 40'long by 10' wide. They have a freightline container outside where they store their timber. Its all very quaint.

As far as im aware they've been doing sash windows for decades and are very highly rated.
I think while other timbers can be used, if it aint broke, dont fix it.

 

[Adam W.]

I just can't believe people are using mdf to make windows with.

 

[LBCarpentry]

So here is where i'm at. Like I said, Ive made tonnes of good windows in my mere 15 years and a gizzilion sash's but this is my first proper weighted sash frame so quite looking forward to the final result. Got 15 to do and install. My initial concerns are is my cavity big enough (oo err) to be able to get the lead weights into the frame - they can be awkward. And how do I stop them fowling against each other? Usually there is a floating rip of timber that allows the first weight to squeeze by, and once the other weight is installed then they don't hit each other. Need to work out how to do something a bit cleaner - or perhaps not!

 

[LBCarpentry]

I just can't believe people are using mdf to make windows with.

I love the idea of you being sat there for a week thinking....and then conclude that...

If your referring to tricoya though think of the facts, this is a fully water proof sheet material, that has an exceptional painted finish. We can surely agree that when making a simple box that is to be painted, the first thought is - "what sheet material is best suited to this task?"....

However, I have pretty much come round to the idea to use a combo of when creating the box. Majority will be timber...