CYC
Established Member
Well done Neil, outstanding table. Outstanding work. I would have defintely messed up cutting the insert, by half a millimeter :roll:
TREND T5 Competition router table - progress report (long..)
- Thread starter Neil
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Anonymous
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Neil
Incra is currently top of my xmas list (almost given up on the lathe) :wink:
Incra is currently top of my xmas list (almost given up on the lathe) :wink:
Waka, nothing fancy for the fastening, just (lots of) plastic assembly joints. Re: the Incra, January isn't far away now!
Graeme, it is the Incra Ultra-Lite, best deal I found was £141 from Tilgear. I think it is plenty big enough for the router table. How about making a table top that hinges from the wall, so you can fold it down when it isn't in use?
CYC, thanks - looking forward to trying it on Saturday?
Tony, yeay, great news!
NeilCFD
Graeme, it is the Incra Ultra-Lite, best deal I found was £141 from Tilgear. I think it is plenty big enough for the router table. How about making a table top that hinges from the wall, so you can fold it down when it isn't in use?
CYC, thanks - looking forward to trying it on Saturday?
Tony, yeay, great news!
NeilCFD
Chris Knight
Established Member
Graeme,
The Incra can take up a fair bit of room and the 12 1.2 inch Lite version is probably enough for most folk as opposed to the larger ones.
As Neil suggests there are space saving options. Like a hinged surface, either from the wall or the back of the router table. In the latter case, all you have to do is raise the extension and clamp on the Incra - the rest of the time it is sitting on a shelf or in a drawer.
That is, until you realise that the Incra system has an indispensable fence and there is no good reason to use anything else, fencewise. I don't use my Incra for joint making at all - except finger joints but I use the precise fence positioning all the time. There is simply nothing to touch it.
I reckon a modification of the Incra design could put all its best bits into a much less space hungry package - one of these days, I may even get around to doing it. Till then I reckon the hassle of its size is worth it.
The Incra can take up a fair bit of room and the 12 1.2 inch Lite version is probably enough for most folk as opposed to the larger ones.
As Neil suggests there are space saving options. Like a hinged surface, either from the wall or the back of the router table. In the latter case, all you have to do is raise the extension and clamp on the Incra - the rest of the time it is sitting on a shelf or in a drawer.
That is, until you realise that the Incra system has an indispensable fence and there is no good reason to use anything else, fencewise. I don't use my Incra for joint making at all - except finger joints but I use the precise fence positioning all the time. There is simply nothing to touch it.
I reckon a modification of the Incra design could put all its best bits into a much less space hungry package - one of these days, I may even get around to doing it. Till then I reckon the hassle of its size is worth it.
Philly
Established Member
Chris is right-the Incra is way more than "just a fence". You need to spend some time with it before you realize it, but Boy is it good. Makes you wish you had the same degree of accuracy with the rest of your power tools! :lol:
Mind you, Incra recommend you use it with your drill press, bandsaw and even your table saw in the manual. So guess I should try that out.......
Cheers
Never enough time Philly
Mind you, Incra recommend you use it with your drill press, bandsaw and even your table saw in the manual. So guess I should try that out.......
Cheers
Never enough time Philly
Great table!
I wonder if a simpler wheeling arrangement would work? My very heavy Lurem universal sits on an angle iron frame with just two heavy duty wheels at the back. When it needs moving, I hook a loose castor on a lever on to the front to lift it. Works fine except for that d*** hole in the concrete that is just where the single castor wants to go!
I wonder if a simpler wheeling arrangement would work? My very heavy Lurem universal sits on an angle iron frame with just two heavy duty wheels at the back. When it needs moving, I hook a loose castor on a lever on to the front to lift it. Works fine except for that d*** hole in the concrete that is just where the single castor wants to go!
Not exactly melted.. but certainly cooked it a bit; the Freud speed control circuit uses a magnet on the end of the rotor shaft to sense the shaft RPM's. The excessive heat managed to separate the magnet from the shaft, resulting in the motor running at around 30,000 RPM instead of the controlled max of 22,000. Apparently the repair shop used a strobe to check the speed; they'd never seen a fault quite like it....
My table is a copy of Norm's first design; plans bought just weeks before they changed to the deluxe version... in the plans, there's a large baffle behind the router, fully side to side, extending from the table down to within 2" of the top of the drawer housing. That baffle effectively kills any air-flow around the router. I'm guessing the original idea was to draw a curtain of air along the full length of the router well to assist with dust collection, as well as duct air through the fence via a vent in the top.....
Guess what... didn't work worth a @£$%...
So after cooking the router, I set at this baffle with avengence, using a 3/4" auger bit and brace to turn the top 6" of the baffle into a tea bag. Now it works a bit too bloody well... whenever I raise panels on the table, the airflow directly under the top is enough to draw most of the shavings into the cooling holes, rather than let them fall to the bottom of the well... They keep the router nice and cool though....
As for the door... to date, I haven't got around to fitting one yet although I've had a piece of thick perspex big enough to do the job for a while now... I still canna decide where best to place any vent holes to get that air curtain effect to work...
Any thoughts....???
waterhead37":vzpblvjg said:
Quite agree, Chris - the requirement for 20" of table behind the bit for a fence with 12.5" of travel does make one think that a bit of 'space optimisation' wouldn't go amiss.
Dick, your simple wheel arrangement sounds good, especially for heavy stuff.
Mike, I remember that Philly put the holes along the bottom edge, although I can't find the picture on 'Philsville' now. It looks like a sensible arrangement, but I think what we really need is an ex-Compaq server case designer to tell us how to do it - I've seen them produce a few really impressive ducting systems over the years.
NeilCFD
<edited because I got the required distance for the Incra from the bit to the back edge wrong in the write-up
(luckily not on the table though :wink - it is 20", not 24">
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Anonymous
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Niel
Very nice work. The great thing about such a project is it can be judged on its fitness for purpose and construction without any influence of personal taste. So it looks just about perfect to me and will doubtless be an ergonomic delight in use.
Roy
Very nice work. The great thing about such a project is it can be judged on its fitness for purpose and construction without any influence of personal taste. So it looks just about perfect to me and will doubtless be an ergonomic delight in use.
Roy
Philly
Established Member
Neil,
Sorry, took the R/T photo's offline-will be posting a router table section on the website soon.
I have a 4inch outlet on the rear bottom of the router "cavity" (?) and have drilled some 1 1/2 in holes in the plexi door at the front, to ensure enough air is moving. Some experimenting is necessary to get it happy (and you still need extraction at the fence) but it is useful
cheers
Philly
Sorry, took the R/T photo's offline-will be posting a router table section on the website soon.
I have a 4inch outlet on the rear bottom of the router "cavity" (?) and have drilled some 1 1/2 in holes in the plexi door at the front, to ensure enough air is moving. Some experimenting is necessary to get it happy (and you still need extraction at the fence) but it is useful
cheers
Philly
CYC
Established Member
I wanted to add, many thanks Neil for posting such a detailed project report. This kind of post is certainly the most educative, inspiring and promoting (discussion and questions). The pictures are invaluable and your hands on comments very useful.
Of course I am very lucky as I will get to see this table and it's famous fence in the flesh at the WE
:idea: May there be more long reports like this :idea:
I should also thank all the users who have done this before on the forum.
Now, I am done with the happy christmas cheery feelings :wink: :wink:
Of course I am very lucky as I will get to see this table and it's famous fence in the flesh at the WE
:idea: May there be more long reports like this :idea:
I should also thank all the users who have done this before on the forum.
Now, I am done with the happy christmas cheery feelings :wink: :wink:
dedee
Established Member
waterhead37":399t2z4j said:
I having been thinking along those lines myself. It just so happens that I have an old gate leg table that might be suitable. If the surfaces are flat enough I envisage mounting the router in the centre part of the table and the Incra fence on the flap.
Seems like a good idea to me but it may be sometime before the tuit arrives
Andy
Steve Maskery
Established Member
Neil
Great job.
I saw the wheel-flap-thingies on Norm too, I like the idea but don't like the way they interfere with storage space.
Interesting comments about over-heating routers. I would have thought that the router would have to be VERY enclosed to get overheated. After all, does it get even warm to the touch when used hand-held? Mine doesn't. I built Norm's table. Good design. I built in dust extraction at the fence and underneath, but I find that my EB HVLP dust extractor simply is not powerful enough to clear stuff from underneath. I use a shop-vac just at the fence now and that works very well, (No good for grooves of course, only edge cuts). So my router is in the BIg Box, no active air supply, although there is an inch gap at the bottom of the door and a vent out the back. No flow though, and I haven't had problems.
So if I am right, it begs the question of why routers are burning out. I really am not convinced it's lack of air flow. Sure, if you block off the actual vents of the machine, maybe, but not just putting it in a big box. My own guess is that debris is more likely to be the culprit. With the router upside down I know that mine is vulnerable to stuff falling into it. Build-up of sawdust around the motor would certainly shorten its life, I'd say. I think that would do much more damage than the absence of a gale blowing through the workshop!
My ha'porth.
Cheers
Steve
Great job.
I saw the wheel-flap-thingies on Norm too, I like the idea but don't like the way they interfere with storage space.
Interesting comments about over-heating routers. I would have thought that the router would have to be VERY enclosed to get overheated. After all, does it get even warm to the touch when used hand-held? Mine doesn't. I built Norm's table. Good design. I built in dust extraction at the fence and underneath, but I find that my EB HVLP dust extractor simply is not powerful enough to clear stuff from underneath. I use a shop-vac just at the fence now and that works very well, (No good for grooves of course, only edge cuts). So my router is in the BIg Box, no active air supply, although there is an inch gap at the bottom of the door and a vent out the back. No flow though, and I haven't had problems.
So if I am right, it begs the question of why routers are burning out. I really am not convinced it's lack of air flow. Sure, if you block off the actual vents of the machine, maybe, but not just putting it in a big box. My own guess is that debris is more likely to be the culprit. With the router upside down I know that mine is vulnerable to stuff falling into it. Build-up of sawdust around the motor would certainly shorten its life, I'd say. I think that would do much more damage than the absence of a gale blowing through the workshop!
My ha'porth.
Cheers
Steve
tim
Established Member
I agree with Steve re router burn out - it does seem strange that there is enough heat insulation in a largish cabinet to overheat a router - certainly in the less than temperate environments most of our workshops are!
It might (apart from the debris - which I think is probably a major contributing factor) be to do with noise - or lack of it.
I currently have an old craftsman routertable - which obviously is not ideal but the router is completely exposed - therefore noisy - so as soon as I have finished with it I turn it off - even just to get another piece of timber from the other side of the workshop (10 feet).
I was using a mate's enclosed table the other day helping him out on a deadline and the noise was so greatly reduced that the router was left running in between pieces (Please ignore Health and Safety here - I was the only one in the workshop etc etc etc). Plus because of this noise reduction it was much more difficult to hear (and in any table - feel) when the motor was under excessive strain. So the result was that the machine was running for longer and probably used harder than it should be.
This theory may be absolute cobblers and I have no proof but I don't believe that by putting a large router in an enclosed space and using it normally, it will overheat enough to burn out. Also in the litigious US I don't think for a minute that Norm and his minions would be designing tables which could involve lawsuits for tool damage.
Thoughts?
T
It might (apart from the debris - which I think is probably a major contributing factor) be to do with noise - or lack of it.
I currently have an old craftsman routertable - which obviously is not ideal but the router is completely exposed - therefore noisy - so as soon as I have finished with it I turn it off - even just to get another piece of timber from the other side of the workshop (10 feet).
I was using a mate's enclosed table the other day helping him out on a deadline and the noise was so greatly reduced that the router was left running in between pieces (Please ignore Health and Safety here - I was the only one in the workshop etc etc etc). Plus because of this noise reduction it was much more difficult to hear (and in any table - feel) when the motor was under excessive strain. So the result was that the machine was running for longer and probably used harder than it should be.
This theory may be absolute cobblers and I have no proof but I don't believe that by putting a large router in an enclosed space and using it normally, it will overheat enough to burn out. Also in the litigious US I don't think for a minute that Norm and his minions would be designing tables which could involve lawsuits for tool damage.
Thoughts?
T
Thanks, Roy & CYC
Philly, looking forward to seeing the pics...
Steve & Tim, I think you're probably right about the debris being the most important factor - I must admit I'm pretty careful about vacuuming the router vents after use, which hopefully will prevent any problems.
One thought on Tim's comment about leaving the router running is that I'm sure I've read somewhere that routers are designed to work under load, and can be damaged if they spend too much of their time running freely. Not sure if this is cobblers or not, presumably electronic speed control should prevent these problems? I find it pretty tedious turning the router off whilst getting another piece of timber, especially since the electric brake inherently doesn't work once you're switching the router externally.
I'm starting to think I might add a door - I've got lots of acrylic loafing around. Maybe I should biscuit-joint the frame, making my entry more valid for the competition :wink:
NeilCFD
Philly, looking forward to seeing the pics...
Steve & Tim, I think you're probably right about the debris being the most important factor - I must admit I'm pretty careful about vacuuming the router vents after use, which hopefully will prevent any problems.
One thought on Tim's comment about leaving the router running is that I'm sure I've read somewhere that routers are designed to work under load, and can be damaged if they spend too much of their time running freely. Not sure if this is cobblers or not, presumably electronic speed control should prevent these problems? I find it pretty tedious turning the router off whilst getting another piece of timber, especially since the electric brake inherently doesn't work once you're switching the router externally.
I'm starting to think I might add a door - I've got lots of acrylic loafing around. Maybe I should biscuit-joint the frame, making my entry more valid for the competition :wink:
NeilCFD
Chris Knight
Established Member
I think most (perhaps all except for the Triton and Milwaukee) routers are simply not designed to be used in router tables and many aspects of the design are therefore sub-optimal from many points of view including ease of use/adjustment but also things like bearing loads and seals (which in the free running condtion are 180 degrees different to the design condition).
Air flow is certainly affected very badly in a table and dust collects inside the router making this even worse, leading to high local temperatures.
Vacuuming a router does little in my experience. Instead compressed air should be used periodically to blow out the router. A vast amount of dust comes out of a router blown with air in this way, even after it has been vacuumed.
Air flow is certainly affected very badly in a table and dust collects inside the router making this even worse, leading to high local temperatures.
Vacuuming a router does little in my experience. Instead compressed air should be used periodically to blow out the router. A vast amount of dust comes out of a router blown with air in this way, even after it has been vacuumed.
Steve wrote....
Steve, if my table didn't actively demonstrate that airflow as opposed to waste management is the cause, I'd be inclined to agree with you...
case in point...
From the get go, my table's always had dust extraction through the fence, extracted by the shop vac; this was where I left Norm's design behind... I wasn't sold on the ducted DC idea...
If I'm raising panels (for example), prior to modifying to hook up the DC, I'd be able to work for maybe 10 mins before the router became excessively hot... note I'm saying hot here... not warm... temps that you wouldn't wanna hold on to for more than a sec or two...
I subsequently added the DC mod and tried it, adding the extra holes as close to the top of the baffle as I could; running both the shop vac and the DC, I can run the router for in excess of an hour... no significant heat build up. If I don't bother to hook up the DC and just use the shop vac, I'm back to 10-15 mins running time, max... If I power down between passes I can extend this to maybe 45 mons depending on how heavy a cut I'm taking.
I think the explanation is more to do with lack of air flow to dissipate heat than insulative properties of the table; boxed in on 5 sides with me stood in front of the only open side, there's little opportunity for it to dissipate heat except to the surrounding static air... as soon as I duct air through the housing, the temperature rise is neglegable... honestly, it's as obvious as flipping a light switch....
The only time that waste build up becomes a prob is when raising panels; doesn't take too long before that housing starts to look like it's been snowing wood shavings... however there's just enough force to the air flow from the DC to keep the router clear... it builds up damn near everywhere else. There's just too much at once for the shop vac to cope with...
Steve, if my table didn't actively demonstrate that airflow as opposed to waste management is the cause, I'd be inclined to agree with you...
case in point...
From the get go, my table's always had dust extraction through the fence, extracted by the shop vac; this was where I left Norm's design behind... I wasn't sold on the ducted DC idea...
If I'm raising panels (for example), prior to modifying to hook up the DC, I'd be able to work for maybe 10 mins before the router became excessively hot... note I'm saying hot here... not warm... temps that you wouldn't wanna hold on to for more than a sec or two...
I subsequently added the DC mod and tried it, adding the extra holes as close to the top of the baffle as I could; running both the shop vac and the DC, I can run the router for in excess of an hour... no significant heat build up. If I don't bother to hook up the DC and just use the shop vac, I'm back to 10-15 mins running time, max... If I power down between passes I can extend this to maybe 45 mons depending on how heavy a cut I'm taking.
I think the explanation is more to do with lack of air flow to dissipate heat than insulative properties of the table; boxed in on 5 sides with me stood in front of the only open side, there's little opportunity for it to dissipate heat except to the surrounding static air... as soon as I duct air through the housing, the temperature rise is neglegable... honestly, it's as obvious as flipping a light switch....
The only time that waste build up becomes a prob is when raising panels; doesn't take too long before that housing starts to look like it's been snowing wood shavings... however there's just enough force to the air flow from the DC to keep the router clear... it builds up damn near everywhere else. There's just too much at once for the shop vac to cope with...
Steve Maskery
Established Member
Hi Mike
Well that is very interesting. I wouldn't have thought it, but I guess you know your router table rather better than I do. Thanks for the input. I'll perhaps pay a bit more attention to mine int he future, although in fact, I rarely use it for extended runs.
I've bought a new 625 today, mainly for mortising, as it's too much of a pain taking my 177 in and out of the table. First job is to remake my mortising jaws with new improved stops.
Cheers
Steve
Well that is very interesting. I wouldn't have thought it, but I guess you know your router table rather better than I do. Thanks for the input. I'll perhaps pay a bit more attention to mine int he future, although in fact, I rarely use it for extended runs.
I've bought a new 625 today, mainly for mortising, as it's too much of a pain taking my 177 in and out of the table. First job is to remake my mortising jaws with new improved stops.
Cheers
Steve
Wulf, I finally remembered to check this last night - with 6kg of router hung off the insert, it isn't crowned at all - in fact, if anything it is a tiny, tiny smidge the other way. Maybe it is optimised for 5kg routers :wink:wulfric":1e2lxbcn said:
NeilCFD
