A
Anonymous
Guest
The other person thinks you should have formal qualifications.
Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:
MooreToolsPlease
Established Member
- Joined
- 17 Sep 2006
- Messages
- 366
- Reaction score
- 0
What formal qualifications are there exactly?
mel
Established Member
dont know what formal qualifications there are left nowadays
you may come across some time served joiners periodically , but there work is not much better than , say an nvq qualified person
experience is major contributor to the quality of workmanship
so most likely an older "cabinet maker" {probably,city and guilds qualified} will produce work of superior quality to that of say a youth training scheme lad
on the same hand , the best joiner i know has no qualifications whatsoever , but has a passion for the trade and a love of/for woodworking
written qualifications are a sign of competence to show to a prospective employer , but if your no good at your job , it will show and you will soon be looking for another job
just my twopennorth FWIW
you may come across some time served joiners periodically , but there work is not much better than , say an nvq qualified person
experience is major contributor to the quality of workmanship
so most likely an older "cabinet maker" {probably,city and guilds qualified} will produce work of superior quality to that of say a youth training scheme lad
on the same hand , the best joiner i know has no qualifications whatsoever , but has a passion for the trade and a love of/for woodworking
written qualifications are a sign of competence to show to a prospective employer , but if your no good at your job , it will show and you will soon be looking for another job
just my twopennorth FWIW
The Restorer
Established Member
You've lost me Brad! :?
Historical demarcations are everything. Just becuase we're now in the 21st century doesn't mean all that's gone before is irrelevant (it's a dangerous belief commonly used by politicians).
These terms of description were drawn up centurys ago and are still relevant terms. The problem now is that the demarcation points between the trades are all but gone (no trades guilds to fight it out as to who does what!!). Nowadays, a person mainly chooses which definition they are known by, unless they have a qualification in that trade.
You lost me here :? . The original Dutch cabinetmakers had nothing to do with French Polishing :? . The dutch influence came about at the time of the restoration of the monarchy (17th century) and was bought in, with Charles 2, as that is the furniture he had been surrounded with whilst in exile. French Polishing was introduced, in britain around 1820 (19th century).
The Oxford Dictionary lists a Carpenter as "a person skilled in woodwork" it list a joiner as "a maker of furniture and light woodwork" and a cabinetmaker as "a skilled joiner".
And when you quoted this" Time moves on. If Chippendale, Hepplewhite, or Sheraton had had a Leigh jig and router available, I am sure that they would have found a use for it. The same is probably true of veneered MDF and AC lacquers! They used the most up-to-date methods and materials available to them."
You really lost me :? :? . I don't see the relevance regarding the subject. Chippendale and the others were designers (they didn't really make that much by way of furniture). They were, at the time, at the forefront of furniture design. And yes, they probably would have used power tools etc. etc. if they had been available to the at the time. But they also used traditional methods. They, like todays designers, moved things on. They weren't stuck in the past, nor were they hell bent on using just the latest of everything.
Good for you if you want to call yourself a cabinetmaker, but to the paying public, what does the term now mean? If you look through your local Yellow Pages, you will see most of the terms previously mentioned advertised. Yet, certainly in my area, the people under the cabinetmakers section are few. Most of what i would call cabinetmakers are under the heading "designers and manufacturers of furniture". I beleiv, through talking to these people this is because the majority of the public don't know off/understand the term cabinetmaker. :roll:
Just because you make very little reproduction furniture has nothing to do with an impossed status (or not) of cabinetmaker. Nor does working with hand tools.
I beleive a cabinetmaker is now very close in terms, to a joiner. The demarcation is that the joiner tends towrad work around buildings i.e. doors, windows etc. where as the cabinetmaker makes furniture.
Norm, i would describe as a machinist. But if he wants to tag himself "master carpenter" thats up to him. Although, i beleive he started to use that title back in the days when he was doing building refubs and was therefore a carpenter. Not sure if american/english terms really relate. (just waiting for the normites to chip in :lol: )
High quality is another subjective term. And producing work of a high quality in the shortest possible time in order to make profit, yes it's a starting point, but theres more to it than that.
Yes, Chippendale (senior and junior) was bankrupt on several occasions. Yet today a Chippendale chair starts at around £56k :shock: . His only real money spinner was his design catalogues, and that benefitted his estate. The same is true for far too many dessigners and artist. During there living years they struggle with this concept of pushing the boundaries whilst earning a living. The arts and craft movement are another example.
Lets face it anyone can set them selves up a cabinetmaker or anything else regardless of skill or qualification. The only way they'll keep going is to produce work of a given quality for a given price. These two must corallate to each other closely or he'll fail.
People have now become accustomed to getting everything cheap. Most furniture is now made in the far east because it's cheaper. If you are in the business and regularly go to quote for work you'll now how frustration it is and how you hear the same quotes of "how much!, IKEA, Argos etc sell it for way less than that" if you have to explain the difference, you're dealing with the wrong people. Pack up go home, don't waste your time.
You will not compete with price and quality in this way. You need to be competing on quality and price, then at least you've got a chance.
To read, what i consider to be the sage's words on working within the trade of cabinetmaker, read Paul Richardson'sold articles from Furniture and Cabinetmaking.
Anyway, enough of this. Get on and make shavings (or sawdust if you biscuit joint and machine everything :wink: )
Stephen.
Historical demarcations are everything. Just becuase we're now in the 21st century doesn't mean all that's gone before is irrelevant (it's a dangerous belief commonly used by politicians).
These terms of description were drawn up centurys ago and are still relevant terms. The problem now is that the demarcation points between the trades are all but gone (no trades guilds to fight it out as to who does what!!). Nowadays, a person mainly chooses which definition they are known by, unless they have a qualification in that trade.
You lost me here :? . The original Dutch cabinetmakers had nothing to do with French Polishing :? . The dutch influence came about at the time of the restoration of the monarchy (17th century) and was bought in, with Charles 2, as that is the furniture he had been surrounded with whilst in exile. French Polishing was introduced, in britain around 1820 (19th century).
The Oxford Dictionary lists a Carpenter as "a person skilled in woodwork" it list a joiner as "a maker of furniture and light woodwork" and a cabinetmaker as "a skilled joiner".
And when you quoted this" Time moves on. If Chippendale, Hepplewhite, or Sheraton had had a Leigh jig and router available, I am sure that they would have found a use for it. The same is probably true of veneered MDF and AC lacquers! They used the most up-to-date methods and materials available to them."
You really lost me :? :? . I don't see the relevance regarding the subject. Chippendale and the others were designers (they didn't really make that much by way of furniture). They were, at the time, at the forefront of furniture design. And yes, they probably would have used power tools etc. etc. if they had been available to the at the time. But they also used traditional methods. They, like todays designers, moved things on. They weren't stuck in the past, nor were they hell bent on using just the latest of everything.
Good for you if you want to call yourself a cabinetmaker, but to the paying public, what does the term now mean? If you look through your local Yellow Pages, you will see most of the terms previously mentioned advertised. Yet, certainly in my area, the people under the cabinetmakers section are few. Most of what i would call cabinetmakers are under the heading "designers and manufacturers of furniture". I beleiv, through talking to these people this is because the majority of the public don't know off/understand the term cabinetmaker. :roll:
Just because you make very little reproduction furniture has nothing to do with an impossed status (or not) of cabinetmaker. Nor does working with hand tools.
I beleive a cabinetmaker is now very close in terms, to a joiner. The demarcation is that the joiner tends towrad work around buildings i.e. doors, windows etc. where as the cabinetmaker makes furniture.
Norm, i would describe as a machinist. But if he wants to tag himself "master carpenter" thats up to him. Although, i beleive he started to use that title back in the days when he was doing building refubs and was therefore a carpenter. Not sure if american/english terms really relate. (just waiting for the normites to chip in :lol: )
High quality is another subjective term. And producing work of a high quality in the shortest possible time in order to make profit, yes it's a starting point, but theres more to it than that.
Yes, Chippendale (senior and junior) was bankrupt on several occasions. Yet today a Chippendale chair starts at around £56k :shock: . His only real money spinner was his design catalogues, and that benefitted his estate. The same is true for far too many dessigners and artist. During there living years they struggle with this concept of pushing the boundaries whilst earning a living. The arts and craft movement are another example.
Lets face it anyone can set them selves up a cabinetmaker or anything else regardless of skill or qualification. The only way they'll keep going is to produce work of a given quality for a given price. These two must corallate to each other closely or he'll fail.
People have now become accustomed to getting everything cheap. Most furniture is now made in the far east because it's cheaper. If you are in the business and regularly go to quote for work you'll now how frustration it is and how you hear the same quotes of "how much!, IKEA, Argos etc sell it for way less than that" if you have to explain the difference, you're dealing with the wrong people. Pack up go home, don't waste your time.
You will not compete with price and quality in this way. You need to be competing on quality and price, then at least you've got a chance.
To read, what i consider to be the sage's words on working within the trade of cabinetmaker, read Paul Richardson'sold articles from Furniture and Cabinetmaking.
Anyway, enough of this. Get on and make shavings (or sawdust if you biscuit joint and machine everything :wink: )
Stephen.
I thought the term Master Carpenter & Joiner was awarded to you after passing all CITB ( City and Guilds) training up to advanced craft and level 3 NVQ and then passing various separate skills tests both written and practical .Not something you call yourself because it sounds good .
I do agree that if someone can do the job then a bit of paper doesn't matter, but when doing the training you learn a wider range of skills and tricks . Where as reading what you want to do from books limits you to the type of thing you want to do .
A Master Carpenter and Joiner is a machinist , he can pitch a roof , build a stair case , make a wardrobe , make and hang a door ,shore up a building and make a chair etc .
Having said that once all the training and tests are done you are labeled a Master Carpenter and Joiner at 20 years old, so it doesn't really work does it .
I think if you make a living from making cabinets then you can call yourself a cabinet maker .
I do agree that if someone can do the job then a bit of paper doesn't matter, but when doing the training you learn a wider range of skills and tricks . Where as reading what you want to do from books limits you to the type of thing you want to do .
A Master Carpenter and Joiner is a machinist , he can pitch a roof , build a stair case , make a wardrobe , make and hang a door ,shore up a building and make a chair etc .
Having said that once all the training and tests are done you are labeled a Master Carpenter and Joiner at 20 years old, so it doesn't really work does it .
I think if you make a living from making cabinets then you can call yourself a cabinet maker .
Shultzy
Established Member
This web site lists a lot of qualifications you can get.
http://www.learndirect-advice.co.uk/hel ... rofile539/
"Cabinet makers are skilled craftsmen/women who make individually designed and produced pieces of furniture such as:
* chairs
* tables
* chests of drawers
* fitted furniture and cabinets for storage or display.
They may also restore antiques or repair damaged furniture."
http://www.learndirect-advice.co.uk/hel ... rofile539/
"Cabinet makers are skilled craftsmen/women who make individually designed and produced pieces of furniture such as:
* chairs
* tables
* chests of drawers
* fitted furniture and cabinets for storage or display.
They may also restore antiques or repair damaged furniture."
mel
Established Member
was going to mention in a previous post about a can of worms
i spent a week at bircham newton , national construction college, to get my site managers safty training scheme certificate
it wont be going onto my CSCS card {another license to work}
both are different trade organizations and fail to recognise each other [-(
i spent a week at bircham newton , national construction college, to get my site managers safty training scheme certificate
it wont be going onto my CSCS card {another license to work}
both are different trade organizations and fail to recognise each other [-(
A
Anonymous
Guest
JFC":1b3fiw8q said:
I don't think it matters at all whether you use hand tools, power tools, or a CNC. All that counts is the result.
If if you're good at making cabinets then you're a good cabinetmaker.
If you're not good at at making cabinets then you're a crap cabinet maker.
