Tool History - when was the Bevel-edged Chisel born?

[Jacob]

....... I suspect (perhaps Richard T or others with smithing experience could comment?) that forming rectangular sections by hand and eye is easier than forming bevel-edged type sections. Any minor bevels (such as we have found on early 19th century firmers) could be better made by grinding......

Exactly the opposite IMHO. Try forming a rectangular cross section strip of plasticine by pressure. Very difficult, an (indeterminate) bevel section very easy.
Similarly virtually all hand forged (or chipped stones etc) have free (ish) form and tapered sections. It's easier and hence cheaper.
Come industrialisation and the opposite applies, rectangular section easier and cheaper. The bevel becomes an extra process.

 

[Racers]

Hi,

Those chisels in Andy T pic are drop forged, the next step is in a die that cuts off the flash round the sides.

Jacob, how can a flat hammer and a flat anvil produce a bevelled chisel?

Pete

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Thinking about this makes me realise that I really ought to get to Sheffield and visit Abbeydale Hamlet and the Ken Hawley Collection, where I suspect the answer would be easily visible!

I'm sure you'd enjoy the visit. When I went to Abbeydale on a school trip just a few years ago :wink:, you could watch people pouring moulten brass around - don't know if they do that anymore.. A quick look in the Ashley Iles pdf catalogue might be interesting first though; the forging of a carving gouge from a billet of O1 is shown and described step by step, ant there's little to it that would surprise a Victorian toolmaker, I think.

 

[bugbear]

This is pure speculation, but could the b/e section we have become so familiar with have evolved simply to make manufacture by drop-forging easier?

Since B/E were still more expensive in the market, I don't quite buy that. But drop forging might make the (long invented and always desired) b/e style more affordable, possibly explaining the time gap between invention and common use.

Certainly the rapid changes in manufacturing processes around the end of the 19th cent are a very plausible explanation for the emergence of the b/e style.

BugBear

 

[János]

Hello,

Handforging a chisel from a piece of steel includes many steps. A simple, flat, splaying form is the easiest to forge: the wood carving chisels kept this archaic " fishtail" shape. Handforged tool blanks were/are tidied up by filing to shape before hardening, and not by grinding. Lamination requires much more attention from the maker than one piece solid steel forging does, the small difference in the achievable end hardness (1-2 HRC) is not enough to justify the much more labour and the increased costs of production.
A few useful books on the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/Tool-Making-Woodw ... 0964399989
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Modern-B ... cksmithing

Have a nice day,

János

 

[AndyT]

Tony - thanks for the tip about the Ashley Iles catalogue - not being a carver I had stupidly never bothered to look at it!

EDIT: If you start here, there are some brief videos to make it clearer: http://www.ashleyiles.co.uk/tool_production.html

 

[bugbear]

I've checked a couple of older catalogues.

Preston (1909) list 1" Firmer chisels at 8/- per doz, with Bevelled edge versions at 12/- per doz, both unhandled.

It is of note for the purposes of this discussion that they also list "long, thin paring chisels" that are not bevel edged, along with the b/e variant we might expect pattern makers to use (14/- and 20/- respectively, unhandled, per doz).

In 1935, Buck & Hickman have firmer at 9/- and bevel edged at 15/-, again unhandled and per doz.

So even if new production processes had made bevel edged feasible, it hadn't made them cheap.

BugBear

 

[GazPal]

A possible example - although considerably more recent - per the approach to and reasoning behind tool buying from a trade standpoint came at the beginning of my apprenticeship when I was in need of tools/expanding upon the basic tool kit I'd been provided. Of limited means, when buying chisels I found it cheaper to buy firmers than their bevel edged counterparts, so managed to build up a full set in two thirds the time it would have taken, in spite of buying e.g. a chisel, screwdriver, saw, auger bits, etc. each week. The firmers were used for dovetailing, paring and light mortising and I still have that set, as well as another of bevel edged chisels I'd gathered during my second year. I still have both sets from Stanley's 5002 range and - blades being the same steel grade - they only differ from 5001 chisels in terms of handle colour and the fact 5002 blades weren't polished.

The above is a fairly typical example of how young tradesmen used their tool money and built their kits, buying via mail order catalogues or visiting tool dealers.

-----------

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Gaz - yes, when I was nobbut a nipper, we had one of those old-fashioned ironmonger's stores in my hometown where you asked the brown-coated chap behind the counter, and he'd disappear into the back for an age and reappear with two or three to choose from. If they didn't have one, they'd order it. Their stock was amazing, and they stocked both DIY and top quality tradesmen's tools. You could buy screws by the gross or the dozen. The shed-on-the-bypass killed them off in the 1990's. Ted Frost, in his book,'From Tree to Sea - The Building of a Wooden Steam Drifter' (his beautifully-illustrated memoirs of his apprentiseship in a Great Yarmouth boatyard just before WW1) tells of the tool company rep. calling weekly, and the lengths apprentices would go to to be 'unavailable' when he called to settle accounts - money didn't grow on trees then, either!

BB - the price difference is interesting. Leaving aside the possibility that a price was being set that manufacturers felt the market might bear, one possible explaination lies in the difficulty and extra work in grinding a b/e chisel. I remember reading recently (damned if I can recall where) that while Ashley Isles were developing their Mark II b/e chisels (with very fine edges) they had great difficulty in successfully grinding the bevels. The heat-treated steel had stresses locked into it that distorted the chisel as the surface metal was ground away, and the thinner the bevel, the worse the problem. Many prototypes ended up in the scrap before they evolved a grinding regime that countered the problem. Maybe our early 20th century manufacturers had the same problem, and the premium price reflected either a high scrap rate, or a more time-consuming grinding operation.

I agree with you that the price differential does not suggest that drop-forging reduced overall production costs, though. It's also quite possible to make a b/e chisel under the spring hammer with suitable dies, so perhaps the introduction of drop-forging does not explain the rise of the shape. Maybe it's down to somebody finding a solution to the grinding/distortion problem?

 

[bugbear]

Gaz - yes, when I was nobbut a nipper, we had one of those old-fashioned ironmonger's stores in my hometown where you asked the brown-coated chap behind the counter, and he'd disappear into the back for an age and reappear with two or three to choose from. If they didn't have one, they'd order it. Their stock was amazing, and they stocked both DIY and top quality tradesmen's tools. You could buy screws by the gross or the dozen. The shed-on-the-bypass killed them off in the 1990's. Ted Frost, in his book,'From Tree to Sea - The Building of a Wooden Steam Drifter' (his beautifully-illustrated memoirs of his apprentiseship in a Great Yarmouth boatyard just before WW1) tells of the tool company rep. calling weekly, and the lengths apprentices would go to to be 'unavailable' when he called to settle accounts - money didn't grow on trees then, either!

Thanks for that reference - I read the book a long time ago, and was trying to remember the title so I could read it again (library copy).

BB - the price difference is interesting. Leaving aside the possibility that a price was being set that manufacturers felt the market might bear, one possible explaination lies in the difficulty and extra work in grinding a b/e chisel. I remember reading recently (damned if I can recall where) that while Ashley Isles were developing their Mark II b/e chisels (with very fine edges) they had great difficulty in successfully grinding the bevels. The heat-treated steel had stresses locked into it that distorted the chisel as the surface metal was ground away, and the thinner the bevel, the worse the problem. Many prototypes ended up in the scrap before they evolved a grinding regime that countered the problem. Maybe our early 20th century manufacturers had the same problem, and the premium price reflected either a high scrap rate, or a more time-consuming grinding operation.

I agree with you that the price differential does not suggest that drop-forging reduced overall production costs, though. It's also quite possible to make a b/e chisel under the spring hammer with suitable dies, so perhaps the introduction of drop-forging does not explain the rise of the shape. Maybe it's down to somebody finding a solution to the grinding/distortion problem?

It's still plausible that drop forging bought the price down from a truly massive premium to a "mere" 50%. Perhaps prior to drop forging b/e chisels were so very expensive and difficult to make that it was commercially impractical. But that's all speculation and assertion.

The question (IMHO) remain open - to rephrase the OP's question - "when and why did b/e chisels become widely used"?

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

.....
The question (IMHO) remain open - to rephrase the OP's question - "when and why did b/e chisels become widely used"?

BugBear

The answer remains 'since the very beginning'.
So far no one has shown that the old flared and/or bevelled hand forged chisel went out of use and was later re-introduced as the modern bevel, with some sort of gap. It's an odd idea anyway, why would there be a gap?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

.....
The question (IMHO) remain open - to rephrase the OP's question - "when and why did b/e chisels become widely used"?

BugBear

The answer remains 'since the very beginning'.
So far no one has shown that the old flared and/or bevelled hand forged chisel went out of use and was later re-introduced as the modern bevel, with some sort of gap. It's an odd idea anyway, why would there be a gap?

So far, we have the Nova Zembla chisel of 1596, and we are all familiar with examples from the late 19th/early 20th century onwards. We have documentary evidence (contemporaneous literature, Sheffield List etc.) which suggest that the b/e chisel was rare or virtually unknown between thes two dates. Can you point us to examples of b/e chisels that can confidently be dated to earlier than about 1890 (other than Nova Zembla)?

 

[Jacob]

Prehistoric chisels
Bronze age chisel
Medieval chisel
They are all variously flared, bevelled etc
Then there's the Nova Zembla chisel of 1596. No reason to think it's anything but typical.

Documentary evidence - a catalogue of knives does not prove that the fork had not been invented.
You can't really prove a negative from such evidence.
It would be surprising if bevelled chisels stopped being made at some point and then were re-discovered. Why do you think this? There is no evidence for this odd idea.
Not that it hasn't been interesting trawling through all these snippets of information.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Jacob - can you show us some examples of b/e chisels that can confidently be dated to between about 1600 and about 1890?

 

[Jacob]

Jacob - can you show us some examples of b/e chisels that can confidently be dated to between about 1600 and about 1890?

Probably, if I google enough. Have a look yourself.
You don't really think they stopped making them in 1600 do you? Why?

PS there are two in Moxon (plate 8 ) 1703. One a flared socket which would have a tapering edge (not a 'firmer' at any rate) the other being definitely bevelled. No doubt there were many other shapes and sizes.
In any case the Nova Zembla chisel is such an excellent looking item it seems extremely unlikely that similar items were not made continuously, with variations as technology changed of course. It's not that different from a modern bevel edge so I can't imagine that they went out of fashion and then came back in!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Jacob - can you show us some examples of b/e chisels that can confidently be dated to between about 1600 and about 1890?

Probably, if I google enough. Have a look yourself.
You don't really think they stopped making them in 1600 do you? Why?

PS there are two in Moxon (plate 8 ) 1703. One a flared socket which would have a tapering edge (not a 'firmer' at any rate) the other being definitely bevelled. No doubt there were many other shapes and sizes.
In any case the Nova Zembla chisel is such an excellent looking item it seems extremely unlikely that similar items were not made continuously, with variations as technology changed of course.

Jacob, the point of the entire thread is that the b/e chisel is rare or non-existant before about 1890 (though there are examples before about 1600). We don't know why, either. That is the point of the discussion.

We can't find any examples of b/e chisels made in the early 19th century, for example. You say we're wrong. Prove us wrong.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob - can you show us some examples of b/e chisels that can confidently be dated to between about 1600 and about 1890?

Probably, if I google enough. Have a look yourself.
You don't really think they stopped making them in 1600 do you? Why?

PS there are two in Moxon (plate 8 ) 1703. One a flared socket which would have a tapering edge (not a 'firmer' at any rate) the other being definitely bevelled. No doubt there were many other shapes and sizes.
In any case the Nova Zembla chisel is such an excellent looking item it seems extremely unlikely that similar items were not made continuously, with variations as technology changed of course.

Jacob, the point of the entire thread is that the b/e chisel is rare or non-existant before about 1890 (though there are examples before about 1600). We don't know why, either. That is the point of the discussion.

We can't find any examples of b/e chisels made in the early 19th century, for example. You say we're wrong. Prove us wrong.

I believe you when you say you can't find any examples etc.
But that doesn't prove that they weren't being made and it seems so improbable that they went out of fashion and came back in again, which is what you seem to have concluded.
There is always a huge overlap in production techniques - for instance it seems that stone, iron and bronze tools have been found together , suggesting that in some places they were all used at the same period whenever that was - early iron age I guess.
Similarly in the 19C - old and new would be going on side by side.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

OK. Prove that b/e chisels were being made during the 18th and early 19th centuries. So far, we can't find any examples. You say they must be there - prove it.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Shades of Bertrand Russell's Celestial Teapot?

 

[GazPal]

"Figure 4.—1703: Only the principal tools used in carpentry are listed by Moxon: the axe (A), adz (B), socket chisel (C), ripping chisel (D), drawknife (E), hookpin (F), bevel (G), plumb line (H), hammer (I), commander (K), crow (L), and jack (M). (Moxon, Mechanick Exercises ..., 1703. Library of Congress.)"

The ripping chisel (D) is one historic form of bevel edged chisel and one I knew of, but hadn't connected with bevel edged chisels. Although no longer commonly known as ripping chisels - the original differing with more common modern bent rippers - they were straight bladed & bevel edged with their name probably implying another intended use. Very probably utilised when creating and cleaning out acutely angular joints in framework.