Tool Batteries

[TheUnicorn]

If I was going to recell a battery I'd treat it as a scrap project, sourcing 18650s from broken laptops etc and spending time with a multimeter etc.

worth the effort if it costs you nothing, otherwise I'd just buy a new, branded battery.

 

[owen]

Hi Dave

I use mostly corded 110 volt tools and only a cordless Makita Impact driver and a couple of Makita drills because they warrant being cordless for convenience, I will not use any other cordless tools because I want them to just keep going without having flat batteries which always seem to go flat at the most inconvenient time possible.

That's why battery level indicators were invented. Never have to worry about flat batteries. The procore 8ah batteries I've got from bosch really do seem to last forever, even in my grinder or circular saw.
I suppose working with corded tools is not so much of an inconvenience in the workshop environment as it is on site.

 

[PerryGunn]

Thread got me wondering about the cost of lithium cells. Googling the latest 21700 cells, 4 to 5Ah capacity from Panasonic or similar it looks like the 5 cells you would need to make an 18V 4Ah battery pack will cost end users like us a little over £30 delivered, tax paid from Hong Kong.
That compares with about £50 street price of the corresponding battery pack for a major brand.
So there's not a great deal to be saved by trying to refurb a worn out pack at those prices.

If you buy in 100's then the price falls to nearer £3 per cell or £15 per 4Ah pack

Cordless tool battery performance tends to depend on the current rating, i.e. they have to be able to sustain a high discharge rate as well as sufficient capacity to provide the runtime The general rule of thumb is higher capacity cells have lower current ratings - reliable cells that have capacity and decent current ratings are more expensive.

This is why a lot of the clone batteries can end up failing - cheap cells are used and while the capacity is fine, they don't have a high enough current rating. They can cope for a while but the repeated high-discharge rate demands of (some) power tools eventually kills the cells. That said, they probably last as long as an OEM battery if used in tools that don't demand much current e.g. a jobsite radio, torch, smaller drills etc. This usage profile may go some way to explaining why some people say that they don't have a problem with clone batteries and others do - it's not a like-for-like comparison.

Makita batteries (>= 3Ah) don't use 21700 cells, they use 18650 cells. In order to enable them to provide both the run-time capacity and the high discharge rates, each battery pack has 10 cells arranged in 2 banks of 5.
e.g.
a 4Ah battery would use 10 x 2000mAh 3.6v 18650 cells with a current rating of, say, 25A
Bank 1 : 5 x 3.6v 2000mAh = 18v / 2Ah
Bank 2 : 5 x 3.6v 2000mAh = 18v / 2Ah
The two banks are connected in parallel to give a nominal 18v / 4Ah battery pack

What's currently stopping Makita producing batteries > 6Ah is that 18650 cells with >3000mAh capacity that are also capable of repeated high discharge rates are few and far between (and relatively expensive). In order to get more capacity, they'll need to move to something like 21700 cells and, while they tend to have larger capacities, they still have the same capacity/discharge rate tradeoff - e.g. something like the Samsung 50E 21700 has a 5000mAh capacity but it's only current rated at 10A.

 

[RichardG]

I bought my last one from ToolStore, currently in stock at £85.

MAKITA 632F15-1 BL1850B 18v 5ah Li-ion Battery

 

[Amateur]

That is always going to be the issue with any cordless tools, you will always be tied to the OEM and buying their batteries for as long as you want to use that tool. With a corded tool you are not tied and it will keep going until the point of failure not until it is not cost effective to replace the battery.

I hated the days when you had to carry round that long reel of cable, then go and find a plug or ask a householder if they could plug in and pass through an open window.
All for a two minute job

 

[Amateur]

Switched to Makita a year or two ago with 6/7 tools so far. All powered by 6 (5 x 6ah + 1 2 ah) non OEM batteries and 1 genuine Makita 5 ah.

Let's go shopping for a genuine Makita 6ah battery:

1st hit is FFX @ £99.00 but out of stock
2nd hit is Toolden @ £107.00

Bound to be cheaper, try the bay:

Cheapest I could see is £73.95 free P & P although showing 2 week delivery.
Saw another listing at £120 +............. and a used one at £70.00........



The non OEM batteries I use are all Vanon brand, have the push button indicators on them and I see no difference in performance or capacity to the real thing.
6 x Makita 6ah at £74 a throw = £444.00
6 x Danon 6ah at £25 a throw - £150.00

Will the Danons go on fire, fail, die after 5 years? Might do, might not but I could buy 18 of them for 6 of the cheapest OEMs.
No brainer in my view, especially if you are on a budget.

Funny because the Dewalt after market I just purchased is a Vanon.
From what I gather they are based in UK too and enclosed an address and contact details which is always encouraging from an Amazon order.

 

[TheUnicorn]

I hated the days when you had to carry round that long reel of cable, then go and find a plug or ask a householder if they could plug in and pass through an open window.
All for a two minute job

that works as a fair summary of corded vs batteries to me. A quick job, with no (convenient) access to power justifies the use of batteries. An ongoing job, or workshop use, it has to make sense to use corded tools, especially if you are on a budget.

 

[BHwoodworking]

that works as a fair summary of corded vs batteries to me. A quick job, with no (convenient) access to power justifies the use of batteries. An ongoing job, or workshop use, it has to make sense to use corded tools, especially if you are on a budget.

90% of my gear is cordless.
the only corded stuff i have is my lathe, bench grinder, 1 of my routers, vac, and sanders

i dont see the point of cordless sanders, becuase you should always be hooked up to exraction.

the only cordless sander i will probabley ever buy is the festool hybrids.

 

[Sideways]

Cordless tool battery performance tends to depend on the current rating, i.e. they have to be able to sustain a high discharge rate as well as sufficient capacity to provide the runtime The general rule of thumb is higher capacity cells have lower current ratings - reliable cells that have capacity and decent current ratings are more expensive.

Absolutely.
A 4Ah pack built with 2 banks of 2Ah high discharge cells should outperform the current 21700 single bank packs in high load uses, but there are 21700 cells out there good for 15A possibly 19A discharge rates and I'm sure it won't be long before the newer packs can do everything we want from them. I'm a fan of small batteries for better handling than the massive heavy ones and the new cells are usefully more compact for the same Amp hour capacity.
I was very impressed with a recent purchase of a brushless angle grinder. It is a high drain tool 1800W equivalent and really intended for use with 8 and 12Ah packs but even powered by the small single bank 21700 Bosch 4Ah pro core battery pack, it is very effective. Time will tell how much it beats up the battery packs

 

[Amateur]

that works as a fair summary of corded vs batteries to me. A quick job, with no (convenient) access to power justifies the use of batteries. An ongoing job, or workshop use, it has to make sense to use corded tools, especially if you are on a budget.

Especially drilling concete for bolts etc.
Its a no brainer.

 

[PerryGunn]

Absolutely.
A 4Ah pack built with 2 banks of 2Ah high discharge cells should outperform the current 21700 single bank packs in high load uses, but there are 21700 cells out there good for 15A possibly 19A discharge rates and I'm sure it won't be long before the newer packs can do everything we want from them. I'm a fan of small batteries for better handling than the massive heavy ones and the new cells are usefully more compact for the same Amp hour capacity.

Yep, I've got some Molicel P42A cells, they're a 21700 with 4200mAh and capable of 35A, they do tail off once they're down to around 30% capacity but impressive nonetheless - and 21700's seem to be getting better fairly rapidly.

When one of my 3Ah Makita batteries starts to die, I may try rebuilding with some of the P42A's - I'll probably have to fettle the battery casing to fit them in and it's likely that it won't be robust enough for anything other than a workshop test...

...but it'll be an interesting experiment...


Now, when can we have hand tools with supercapacitor power packs....

 

[johnny]

I have 3x Makita torches and 5x Makita 18v cordless tools which I have used daily for fencing, building sheds, car and van repair and servicing and every kind of house and garden job. They have had a hard life .

I have 1 original Makita battery and 5x non-Makita batteries which have given equal performance and duration
In the past 6x years I have only had a single failure of one of the non-Makita batteries which was my own fault due to continual discharging with a torch .

Those rivet-counters that 'run down' (sic) non-branded batteries have probably never even used one but I suppose there is always the possibility that the sky might fall in on their heads

 

[PerryGunn]

I bought my last one from ToolStore, currently in stock at £85.

MAKITA 632F15-1 BL1850B 18v 5ah Li-ion Battery

You can get a twinpack of the 6Ah Makitas from PowerToolMate for £156 - so £78 each, still more than my 'normal' £10/Ah target pricing but probably as good as it gets at the moment
https://www.powertoolmate.co.uk/Products/004000060013/EB/BL1860/TWIN

 

[Dabop]

That's why battery level indicators were invented. Never have to worry about flat batteries. The procore 8ah batteries I've got from bosch really do seem to last forever, even in my grinder or circular saw.
I suppose working with corded tools is not so much of an inconvenience in the workshop environment as it is on site.

That's one of the reasons I have so many, jobsites are just so much easier with cordless tools (and I do have to say that mine have been used to the point of being replaced over the years, Despite the original toolkit coming with THREE drills (2 speed heavy screwdriver light drill, extra heavy duty three speed/hammer drill and a right angle drill- Ive replaced the heavy duty one twice (OK one was because I broke it after dropping it 4m onto concrete lol)
(another 'must' these days is an inverter/second battery in the ute to run in my case two chargers- the original fast charger and a 'two fer' fast charger- both are fast (1hr) chargers and I can be charging three batteries in the ute with using more (I got seven or eight- so the 'flat battery' thing isn't really an issue for me...)

Most are clones, and yeah- the quality can be variable, but I have never had an issue with finding decent ones- just avoid the sellers making ridiculous claims- when you see identical batteries- even made by the same company, being sold as 4ahr AND 20ahr at another- well something stinks...
I buy just one from a seller- try it out, then if it seems ok capacitywise, I'll buy a few more from the same one- if it doesn't I ask for a refund/return it not fit for purpose

 

[1steven]

I have this and it works ok

 

[Chris4658]

Keep an eye on Amazon for flash deals. I have a ‘hot deals’ app on my phone that alerts me to these deals. Anything under £10/ah is good. I’ve had quite a few 3ah for £23, and a 5ah for £35 odd