Tongue and groove setup

[JesseM]

Though this will make Alf gasp--it's combo planes that have traditionally caused more cursing in a shop than all planes combined.

Gasp :shock:

Don't like to disappoint... :wink: I'm a bit mazed at the mo' to comment intelligently, but fwiw Stan Faullin has a copy of the Sargent manual here (not sure if that's been mentioned or not).

Cheers, Alf

Thanks Alf. The only one of those I have found have been on ebay, and I wasn't willing to pay many dollars just to figure out how to use the thing from 50 years ago. But I have wanted to glimpse at it to see what it says.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I took so long to reply. I get around to everything eventually.

....... Jake, I noticed you mentioned some casting flaws in yours. Is this something that can be rehabilitated?

I suppose that depends on how badly out of straight the skates are. I did manage to lap the wind out of the skate in the main body of my sargent, off grit on a flat surface....cast wears off very fast as you'd know, so it didn't take long. Probably a good idea to true the sides anyway.

You might want to be careful about wearing away too much meat around the nickers though (remove them first).....personally I think the nickers you get with 45 like planes are rubbish. Their not depth adjustable. So I never use these planes accross grain. So, it wouldn't bother me if they were lapped out of the picture, if it mean't the plane could be made to work. But destroying the nicker area may bother you...

Planes like this don't cut particularily cleanly accross grain anyway, because its got a square bed.

But I suspect something else is wrong if your getting a bottle neck sort of result when using that matching cutter (when cutting the tongue). Only because each skate is in the middle of a wide portion of blade....meaning, you'd have to have those skates badly out of parallel for that to be the problem...In fact I don't think its a factor with the matching cutter at all. Though it would be good practise still make a habit of keeping the skates and fence parallel. Its very important for cuts like ploughing etc.

Basically, you can often work out the problem, if you ask yourself.....'what will inhibit this thing in use? '

here's some things I can think of right now....
- as the plane drops into the cut a side portion of the skate rubs the wall of the groove or whatever you've just cut, which will either make the plane hard to push or stop it altogether etc. Now that can be caused by .....
- skates and fence out of parallel...(the most common problem)
- the skates arn't straight (like I've mentioned with my sargent)...
- the blades too flush or actually inside the skate.
- the blade doesn't flare...meaning a portion of the blade higher up may push off the wall.

I suspect I might confuse you when I say 'flare'.....pictures would help here. I haven't the time just now to get some photos of my sargent....but you can check out this thread.....
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=33429
If you skip the start, and check out the photo's near the end I talk about flaring nickers. Well, ideally, when you sharpen and set your main blades you should try and flare them as well.....generally, leads to a cleaner cut, and frees up your plane.

Is the matching cutter of your sargent when set in the plane, peaking out the bottom of the skates equally ?..Do the inner sides of the blade flare ? (see that T&G thread I listed in my first post)

Another possible problem, I just thought of, which I've had to fix in a stanley no.50 I have, is, the soles not flat. I know the soles just two skates in the sargent, but if the skates aren't flat in relation to one another, just like a regular bench plane, it'll cause problems.....

but now its getting complicated. I must start a new thread on this, so I can be clear. Combination planes have got a bad reputation, but trued up, they can perform just as nicely as any other plane....in my opinion.

oh yeah, like Marc said. Make sure those thumbscrews don't slip ! ...not good. I often nip them just a little tighter with plyers to ensure they never slip. ....I better stop. Goodluck.

 

[JesseM]

Sorry, I took so long to reply. I get around to everything eventually.

Another possible problem, I just thought of, which I've had to fix in a stanley no.50 I have, is, the soles not flat. I know the soles just two skates in the sargent, but if the skates aren't flat in relation to one another, just like a regular bench plane, it'll cause problems.....

What a dearth of information. I think this is the single most useful bunch of info I have ever seen on combo planes. =P~

From what I have been able to tell so far is that the sole is not flat. I know this because it is cutting more aggresively on one side of the tongue than the other. The other reason is that I have measured it. I also checked along the length of skates for flatness and this is a bit harder to tell. It seems there is a high spot around the nicker on the main body side. I hope that is clear. So I will attempt to try and true this up a bit and reread all this info, and let you know how it goes.

Did you make that dovetail cutter yourself? It really is quite bizarre looking, but it definitely seems to work.

 

[Paul Chapman]

you can check out this thread.....
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=33429

That's a great link, Jake - some really interesting stuff. Got any more like that :wink:

Paul

 

[Alf]

Combination planes have got a bad reputation, but trued up, they can perform just as nicely as any other plane....in my opinion.

Too true. It annoys the heck out of me that folks spend aeons fettling bench planes without turning a hair, yet dismiss all combination planes out of hand without even learning how to set one up properly. You done good, Jake.

FWIW I've had skates that weren't straight, skates that weren't flat, fence rod holes that were bored at an angle so the skates and fence would never lie paralllel, fence faces put on upside down, convex fences, concave fences, you name it. Never ever assume a plough, combination or universal plane is ready to work when you get it.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

FWIW I've had skates that weren't straight, skates that weren't flat, fence rod holes that were bored at an angle so the skates and fence would never lie paralllel, fence faces put on upside down, convex fences, concave fences, you name it. Never ever assume a plough, combination or universal plane is ready to work when you get it.

Cheers, Alf

I think your spot on Alf. I think, partly, its the illusion that all it takes is a turn of a knob or a slide of the fence and the planes ready to work. Not as simple as that. One must get an eye in close, with a ruler or whatever and check everything prior to use. And once you get a setting right, lock it hard so it never slips.

And combination planes have plenty of adjustments. Its no wonder they've got a bad rep. Which is kinda of good in a way. :lol: Means they go cheap. I've got five no.50's, two no.45's, two no.55's, two no.44's, five no.43's....Each I bought as cheap as $10AU, and never any more than $40AU. Granted a lot were bought with parts missing. But, I like that, cause I can afford to experiment and have the occational stuffup.

I feel if you cover all the bases, you can feel such confidence that you needent bother about test cuts.

The ultimate goal is, effortless planing. Which in a nutshell means, the only parts of your plane that touches the wood is the very edge of your sharp blade, from corner to corner, the sole of your plane (not any part of the side) and a waxed up fence and the depth stop when it finally bottoms out.....Everything else should just fly through the cut freely.....woooooshhh ! , effortless stuff. Lot of pleasure in that, and productive.

. Got any more like that
Hi paul, I have. But, honestly, I'm affraid of resembling a know it all. I'm very passionate about handplanes. I put much thought into it, as you can tell I suppose. Still learning. And some of the stuff I written about I've changed my mind on as well. So its all just opinionative of course.

I have got another modification on the record 43. The record 43 is my favorite. I love its simplicity and size, and leaves plenty of room for modification.
This one's basically just a small moving fillister. But it allows me to cut small tennons very quickly.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... post326464
I should point out though. I stuffed up the thread a bit. Same with that other record 43 mod. I kept refering to the Stanley 289 as a Stanley 278. I'm not sure why. I must have been thinking of the stanley 78 when I was writing it, which the 289 resembles in size....anyway.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi paul, I have. But, honestly, I'm affraid of resembling a know it all. I'm very passionate about handplanes. I put much thought into it, as you can tell I suppose.

Hi Jake,

Passionate - you bet. I've just spent the last hour following your various links on the Aussie forum. It's been some of the most entertaining and informative stuff I've read in a long time. Hope you will keep it up, its brilliant 8) 8)

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

From what I have been able to tell so far is that the sole is not flat. I know this because it is cutting more aggresively on one side of the tongue than the other. The other reason is that I have measured it. I also checked along the length of skates for flatness and this is a bit harder to tell. It seems there is a high spot around the nicker on the main body side. I hope that is clear. So I will attempt to try and true this up a bit and reread all this info, and let you know how it goes.
.

I think I understand what you mean. Its tricky trying to describe these things eh :lol:

Truing those skates is a bit involved however. I'll start a new topic on it here someday soon with plenty of pictures. I'm finding it too hard to describe how I'd do it with just paragraphs. .

Did you make that dovetail cutter yourself? It really is quite bizarre looking, but it definitely seems to work.

yes I did. I ground it up from an old hand file. It simplier than it looks. I think around the last post in that topic I've attached some close up photos of it, if interested.

Whats exciting about these blades, is that you can fashion them to sit any many types of combination planes like 55's and 45's etc. Skewed blades generally make cleaner cuts, cause you can orientate them to cut with the grain.

Which reminds me about the blades that came with my sargent. I found them pretty soft.....bit of bad news. But then I might have got a bad batch with my plane. Yours might wear better.

 

[JesseM]

Whats exciting about these blades, is that you can fashion them to sit any many types of combination planes like 55's and 45's etc. Skewed blades generally make cleaner cuts, cause you can orientate them to cut with the grain.

Which reminds me about the blades that came with my sargent. I found them pretty soft.....bit of bad news. But then I might have got a bad batch with my plane. Yours might wear better.

Well to be honest I haven't had a real chance to put them to the test. The latest try with the tongue cutter has shown it to last moderately. But I can tell it is dulling fast. Did you soften the file up first to shape it or just use a grinder on it?

Since I had such a bad experience cutting dadoes with this thing I would like to try a skewed cutter to see if its any better. But first the rehab. :twisted:

 

[Alf]

I've got five no.50's, two no.45's, two no.55's, two no.44's, five no.43's....

See? In comparison I don't have any kind of problem at all... :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Paul Chapman]

I've got five no.50's, two no.45's, two no.55's, two no.44's, five no.43's....

See? In comparison I don't have any kind of problem at all... :lol:

Cheers, Alf

No wonder it's been feeling a bit busy on The Slope recently :lol:

Paul

 

[deirdre]

I've got five no.50's, two no.45's, two no.55's, two no.44's, five no.43's....

See? In comparison I don't have any kind of problem at all... :lol:

Cheers, Alf

No wonder it's been feeling a bit busy on The Slope recently :lol:

Yeah, and no wonder some of those planes are pricey. Some people are hoarding.

(I only have one each of 45, 46, and Record 043 myself)

 

[Anonymous]

Well to be honest I haven't had a real chance to put them to the test. The latest try with the tongue cutter has shown it to last moderately. But I can tell it is dulling fast. Did you soften the file up first to shape it or just use a grinder on it?

No I didn't do any blacksmith stuff. I've read a fair bit about it, and have done some experimenting with ovens and the like, but I'm really a complete novice at it.

I prefer just to rip into an old file with grinders, which I feel I can pull off safely and guickly enough. Must use a white wheel on a bench grinder...regular grey ones glaze over.....have fingers close to blade edge, so when your fingers burn you pull back (fingers will burn way before the edge looses temper generally).....

and use thin 1mm cutoff disks in a hand held powered grinder, with lots of little puddles of water sitting over the blank as you go...I usually do major cut offs with the disk before hitting the bench grinder....when the water evaporates off, I stop and cool the blank....using water is just a way to ensure I never blue the steel. Pretty primative technique, but it seems to work fine for experiments :lol:

Old files seem well tempered already. Much harder than the blades that normally come with planes. Brittleness doesn't seem to be a problem because, unlike say a mortise chisel, the blade doesn't have to withstand shock. So the harder the better. Old files definetly best though. New ones don't seem to make the grade......

But, I'm still pretty new to blade creation. Plenty are still sceptical at my results I suspect. Another topic worth starting there I'd say.

Since I had such a bad experience cutting dadoes with this thing I would like to try a skewed cutter to see if its any better. But first the rehab. :twisted:

Well, you better not damage those nickers then, if you want to do Dado work. You'll have to use both. They and the main blades corners must align parallel to the skates as well. Pretty much spot on. Its harder. You'll also have to try and get the nickers to cut at the right depth, which is difficult with those 3-point ones that come with 45's. Those spurs should be made to flare as well. They may sit too flush.

This thread on the stanley 78 has pictures discribing shimming the nicker out with paper. Its all about flaring again. That may help.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=25657

I like using nickers with grain as well, since they tend to cut you a crisper shoulder, but with planes that have this 3 point spur its hard to get them cutting at just the right depth. Their just not depth adjustable...... I just don't bother using them anymore. For dado work I prefer wooden dado's....(currently :lol: I'll probably change my mind next week)

But goodluck to you.

:shock: Alice ?....what do you mean I've got a problem :wink:

 

[Paul Chapman]

This thread on the stanley 78 has pictures discribing shimming the nicker out with paper. Its all about flaring again. That may help.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=25657

Another great link, Jake. I love your idea of using pins to support the end of the work when planing rebates - some really cool stuff when you get deep into the darkside 8) 8) 8)

Paul

 

[deirdre]

:shock: Alice ?....what do you mean I've got a problem :wink:

Well, you know, it's about time I came out about my problem, though it is a tidge off-topic. I hope you'll forgive me.

I've recently decided I really like Lie-Nielson gadgets. Lots. I bought one of their saws at the end of April, then my first plane at the beginning of June, and, well, they're starting to accumulate.

What with their anniversary and all, I figure it's as good a time as any.

 

[Alf]

:shock: Alice ?....what do you mean I've got a problem :wink:

Put it this way; if you don't have a problem (and naturally I'm not suggesting you do - let she who is without glass walls lob the first stone and all that ), well if you don't have a problem, then I certainly don't. Deirdre, on the other hand, does have a problem.

Not Enough. :wink: :lol:

Spur cutters are tedious in the extreme. Stanley used to do single-edged ones that adjusted up and down, at least on some models, which actually aren't bad. I assume the cost of machining the serrations in the skate and the edge of the cutter made them uneconomic so they went the way of other good ideas. I'm quite fond of the pizza wheel variety too, now adopted by LN for the #140 but found on the Woden rebate amongst others. The clover leaf type are pants; first thing you have to do is file away half the length of the leg you're going to use and then you've got limited sharpenings before it's too short. Stupid design.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Paul Chapman]

:shock: Blimey, deirdre, no wonder I thought The Slope was getting busy :shock:

Paul

 

[Alf]

Hmm, I feel I need to clarify that "Not Enough" comment - I meant metal plough and combination planes. Evidentaly other areas are well under control... :lol:

 

[deirdre]

Deirdre, on the other hand, does have a problem.

Not Enough. :wink: :lol:

Ha! Well, I've managed to accumulate 28 planes (in addition to my original 2) in the past 3-1/2 months. Give it time.

I'm not sure I'll get more metal combination planes, though, unless some user-quality Miller patent planes land my way.

Somehow, having made one plane, I've gotten the idea to make a half set of hollows and rounds. It frightens me that I've actually got the wood all picked out and everything, as well as having the blades on order and all.

Spur cutters are tedious in the extreme. Stanley used to do single-edged ones that adjusted up and down, at least on some models, which actually aren't bad. I assume the cost of machining the serrations in the skate and the edge of the cutter made them uneconomic so they went the way of other good ideas. I'm quite fond of the pizza wheel variety too, now adopted by LN for the #140 but found on the Woden rebate amongst others. The clover leaf type are pants; first thing you have to do is file away half the length of the leg you're going to use and then you've got limited sharpenings before it's too short. Stupid design.

When I first saw the clover leaf type, I thought they were clever, and I'm not sure why, because now it's utterly left my mind. I wonder if it were some clever patent-avoidance thing?

I rather like the rotary cutter ones like you do, but I always think of them as Olfa-style (probably because I have an Olfa rotary cutter for fabric that I now use for rough cutting of veneer slightly oversize).

 

[MarcW]

Jake,

Many thanks for the lots of ideas on combos. I rarely saw such neat handmade sliding dovertails and as many well made pics on neanderthaling in one thread. 8) 8) 8)

Jesse,
Another thought on the flatness of the skates. Check the rods, they can be twisted and can lift one skate off a little bit, depends on how they're turned.
I had problems with the nickers at the beginning too. I thought the'd be ground and so I didn't remove them for grooving. The plane didn't slide but stagged and stopped alternately. Inspecting further the nickers were dull and dig in the wood by not even half a millimeter.

Regards, Marc