Tongue and groove setup

[JesseM]

I'm trying to cut a tongue and groove with a Sargent 1040 (I think similar to #45) and am having a hard time figuring it out. I sharpened up the tongue cutter and am messing with that at the moment. I initially just tried to reference off of the skates but the skates limit the depth of cut or if I increase the depth of cut the skates no longer make contact. I actually did cut a pretty decent 1-2 mm groove. I then tried referencing off the fence, which caused me to stagger a lot.

I guess I just can't figure what to reference off of. The board I am experimenting with is 3/4" and the cutter should produce a 1/4" tongue. Very confused :-k

 

[MikeW]

Hi Jesse,

Please pardon what may be pedantic or simply what you already know.

The fence regulates the distance in for the tongue. The adjustable "button" on the tonguing cutter is used to regulate the depth of the tongue itself.

When cutting the tongue, set it for a very light cut and begin with a sharp cutter. Work like cutting a groove--beginning from the far end and work towards the near end. Keep the fence firm against the board.

Once the whole length is thus defined, advance the cutter a little and cut to the depth, usually a couple quick passes, beginning from the far end again but now you can start say about 1/3 of the way from the far end. Then take a pass beginning from say 2/3 of the way from the far end, and then from the near end all the way down. Advance the cutter, and do it all over again. Only advance the cutter a tiny turn at a time.

With experience on a given board, you will learn how much adjustment you can get away with once the tongue is defined.

Keep the fence and skate waxed. You will get into a rhythm of advancing the cutter, a swipe of wax etc.

Take care, Mike

 

[JesseM]

Hi Jesse,

Please pardon what may be pedantic or simply what you already know.

The fence regulates the distance in for the tongue. The adjustable "button" on the tonguing cutter is used to regulate the depth of the tongue itself.

When cutting the tongue, set it for a very light cut and begin with a sharp cutter. Work like cutting a groove--beginning from the far end and work towards the near end. Keep the fence firm against the board.

Once the whole length is thus defined, advance the cutter a little and cut to the depth, usually a couple quick passes, beginning from the far end again but now you can start say about 1/3 of the way from the far end. Then take a pass beginning from say 2/3 of the way from the far end, and then from the near end all the way down. Advance the cutter, and do it all over again. Only advance the cutter a tiny turn at a time.

With experience on a given board, you will learn how much adjustment you can get away with once the tongue is defined.

Keep the fence and skate waxed. You will get into a rhythm of advancing the cutter, a swipe of wax etc.

Take care, Mike

Thanks Mike. I do not know how to use this plane at all. I tried cutting dadoes with it once and gave up due to frustration. In this case since I was running with the grain I thought it might be a bit easier.

I tried your advice and I did make some progress but I can see that it requires a steady hand. Whenever I get going pretty good the plane would rock a wee bit and tear through the groove. I almost wanna try and build a tongue and groove plane just to see if it works any better.

Thanks again!

 

[MikeW]

You're welcome.

The book Planecraft is a decent book for how the various planes work, iirc. But even at that, the very best advice is to have the cutter truly sharp and set to take very little until the tongue is established. Hard to help via long distance beyond that little tidbit.

But you're not alone. Though this will make Alf gasp--it's combo planes that have traditionally caused more cursing in a shop than all planes combined. But like her, I like the beasts for many tasks.

I think you'll find a dedicated pair of wood planes for T&G will have you wondering how you ever got along without them. They will cut that quick and well. And without much thought.

Take care, Mike

 

[JesseM]

You're welcome.
But you're not alone. Though this will make Alf gasp--it's combo planes that have traditionally caused more cursing in a shop than all planes combined. But like her, I like the beasts for many tasks.

I think you'll find a dedicated pair of wood planes for T&G will have you wondering how you ever got along without them. They will cut that quick and well. And without much thought.

Take care, Mike

I can understand its attraction, but that lack of a mouth and wider reference surface makes it very touchy. I wonder if increasing the size of the fence would help. Its such a small thin thing right now. :idea:

I looked at a few pics of the dedicated t&g planes. Did they ever make a wooden adjustable t&g plane. I've seen 2 styles. The one with both the t&g on one plane and the other is the pair like you described. Is there any disadvantage to having the t&g on one plane?

 

[deirdre]

Actually, I really like a Stanley 48 (or 49) for tongues and grooves.

 

[MarcW]

Hi Jesse,

Check these, at the risk you have already done:

1. The fence and the skates have to be parallel one to the other. It'll be best checked at the height of the rods.

2. The cutter has to sit cleanly in. If it is a little bit tilted the flanks will dang in the sides of the groove and that will make the plane stagger.

3. You can hone the sides of the cutter, they will produce a very sharp and clean edge in the groove, this is not indispensable.

4. May I add to Mike's description once again that you have to look at the fence tight to the board and never see a gap inbetween. Any tilting will produce a source for stagging.

Hope I could help,

Marc

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,

My first attempts at T&G was with a stanley 45. Advice given already seems to cover everything.....I don't know if this will help.
Some pictures in it at least on T&G with my 45.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=29848
You may find an easier way of doing it.

Its particularily important that the fence and skates are parallel, like MarcW said, I think. Even though the fence seems to run parallel on its rods, there's often too much play. With a long combination plane like the 45 it doesn't take much skew of the fence to cause a binding problem....I'd check fore and aft of blade with calipers to ensure the fence is the same distance from the skate throughout.

I agree that waxing definetly helps. Slippery wax is best I reakon. But each to their own. I've found sometimes if I use dry wax it can actually bog down the plane....some kind of bogged down suction sort of thing going on.....or maybe I just put too much on.

I believe also, you'll find, the plane easier to control with a deeper wooden face, which you can take advantage of in Tongue and grooving cause the timbers clamped on its edge....ie. deeper wooden face of fence on wide portion of timber = ideal stability. You've got more leaverage to ensure the plane stays tight to the timber and stays vertical.

Another thing I just thought of. I have a sargent version of a stanley 45. I don't know its official name but I assume its the same one as yours.

The one I have has casting flaws. Unlike the stanley 45's the skates in my sargent are cast steel. The sliding skate part has a big wind in it, making the thing unusuable. So, if I was you I'd check that the skates are straight with a ruler......If the skates have even a little wind in them, the plane may bog down in the similar way as having the fence set out of parallel.

Also ensure that the blades corners protrude out the side of the skate. Flush is often not good enough. More bogged down planing.....

Some things to consider. I have to go.....baby's crying.

Goodluck.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Great link, Jake and nice pictures - very helpful :wink:

Paul

 

[MarcW]

Jesse,

It has been a little early this morning, so I wrote groove instead of tongue. Things I said apply to the groove cutter too. I can add that the inner sidewalls of the notch of the tongue cutter can be honed too, at the risk of course not fitting anymore to the groove cutter. So better go on slowly.

As it is for woodies T&G, the fence is minimal just an edge and you have to do all the job holding steady and upright. I have both woodie and #45 and I often opt for the #45, when having time to adjust.

Another early morning fault, I meant talking of the Sargent 1085, similar to the #45 from Stanley and was taught better later on in the morning by google. You don't have a pic or a link, where I could see the boat anchor?

Marc

 

[JesseM]

Last night I made a larger fence for it and it improved the stability greatly. Sorry I think I said 1040 and it is a 1080. Here is a pic:

Is it just me or does the cutter from that article have a skew on the blade? The increased fence size and that ubeaut article have given me the desire to try this thing again.

Thanks for all the replies.

 

[MikeW]

Jesse,

Jake [a.k.a. apricotripper on the ubeat forum] has tons of great posts over there. His joining here is a wonderful thing for both of us--we get his insights and he gets new victims :lol: ...

Take care, Mike
former owner of a Sargent 1080 PB...

 

[Paul Chapman]

The book Planecraft is a decent book for how the various planes work, iirc.

Jesse,

If you look here http://www.marquis-kyle.com.au/record405.htm it's the instruction manual for the Record 405 Multiplane which is more or less what's covered in 'Planecraft' and covers the use of the cutters for tongue and groove work.

Hope this helps :wink:

Paul

 

[JesseM]

I am having another sort of problem. It really bites towards the end of the board, but hardly at all near the beginning. I've included some photos which I hope illustrate this:

I am making sure that I am putting weight in the tote area so as to not put to much pressure on the front. I am looking to see why its not digging in but I can't tell. Could it be the skates? Do the skates need to be both parallel and even when they touch. I think they are parallel but one side may be a little higher than the other. Jake, I noticed you mentioned some casting flaws in yours. Is this something that can be rehabilitated?

 

[MarcW]

... Could it be the skates? Do the skates need to be both parallel and even when they touch. I think they are parallel but one side may be a little higher than the other.

Jesse,

In this set-up the skates should'nt touch, because one skate should be left and the other right to the tongue. This gives excellent support to the plane. You won't plane off much if the skates not properly inbetween the cutting edge of the blade. Maybe the rear part is not parallel and reaches on the tongue part of the cutter.

If it helps I can post a pic later of the setup.

Marc

 

[MarcW]

Jesse,

Here my set-up. Sometimes one of the screws gets lose as happened to me right now. Take care of the screws fixing the rods to the main body. They should be checked first. Then installing the blade. Then positioning the second skirt parallel to the first and then the fence in the upper holes parallel to the second skirt.

Hope this helps,
Marc

 

[Paul Chapman]

Jesse,

One other thought. On my Stanley #45 I found that the fine adjustment screw on the fence (you can see it in Marc's picture above) was protruding and pressing on the wooden fence causing it to bow outwards slightly in the centre. This was easily solved by removing the wooden fence and drilling a clearance hole where the screw was pressing on it.

I'm not sure whether your plane has this fine adjustment screw (doesn't look like it from your photo) but I thought I'd mention it anyway :wink:

Paul

 

[JesseM]

Thanks Marc. What I meant by parallel was that the skates are an equal distance from one another. I do have them separated and supporting the blade.

Paul, I will check that. There is something hanging it up I just haven't found it yet.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Jesse,

If you look at the photos in the link Jake provided, one of them shows his original wooden fence resting on the deeper wooden fence he made. In between the two screw holes on the original fence you can see a small indentation - so it looks like the fine adjustment screw on his Stanley #45 was pressing on the wooden fence on his plane, just like it was on mine. Might be a common problem with the Stanley #45, but one you are unlikely to notice unless you unscrew the wooden fence :wink:

Paul

 

[Alf]

Though this will make Alf gasp--it's combo planes that have traditionally caused more cursing in a shop than all planes combined.

Gasp :shock:

Don't like to disappoint... :wink: I'm a bit mazed at the mo' to comment intelligently, but fwiw Stan Faullin has a copy of the Sargent manual here (not sure if that's been mentioned or not).

Cheers, Alf