Time for a change?

[Jacob]

Yes, I'll agree with dzj, that the way through a recession for a self employed carpenter/joiner/anyone is to have little or no debt. I've never had a workshop that isn't attached to the property that I own, so wouldn't know how much they cost,

They cost a bomb. Lots of small enterprises are working hard, losing money, just to pay the rent and rates. Bin there dunnit!

 

[Adam W.]

Hmmmmm!

Looks like there's a learning curve coming up then.

 

[johnnyb]

unless you've got say 500sqft min I wouldn't bother as Brandon correctly identified tiny premises means tiny work. also dzj has it as well that recessions don't last for ever and a rethink is always useful exercise.
as mentioned many workshops will bail early( look at the number price of used panel saws.) leaving less and less competition.
negative equity is a phrase that you will start hearing shortly. house prices are crazy compared to income. and that bubble has been due to burst for years. but I'm also agreeable with Ian that it's relatively early in this.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

FWIW though house prices may well be high there is very little selling in the south, that’s the only area I know of, and so rents are real jumping, in about 6 years there has been an almost 40% increase.

 

[Jacob]

FWIW though house prices may well be high there is very little selling in the south,

Time of year? Early spring for peak activity.

 

[JoeS]

My business although not in the trades is also flatline at the moment. I just don't think people have any money. I mean I certainly don't. This government are awful.

 

[Jacob]

....... I just don't think people have any money.

But others have loads of it! That is the problem, now, as ever.
https://gala.gre.ac.uk/id/eprint/42714/9/42714_TIPPET_The_good_life_at_the_top.pdf

.... This government are awful.

They are just looking after one section of the community. Wealth has been distributed massively upwards in recent years. They are doing it pretty well but losing support amongst the wider community.
https://gala.gre.ac.uk/id/eprint/33...a_Progressive_Annual_Wealth_Tax_(2021)_v2.pdf

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Time of year? Early spring for peak activity.

No, nothing has been moving for the last 6~9 months

 

[Spectric]

This government are awful.

I don't think any mainstream party will make a difference, we just go back and forth between two parties and not much forward progress. Change will only happen when people ditch the main two and go for something new. All businesses are struggling but have we not always gone through this cycle of boom and bust, it all comes down to, too many sellers and not enough buyers with disposable cash.

 

[Trextr7monkey]

A bit late to the party but a trend I have noticed which is linked to much of the previous discussion is that expanding young families are opting for lift conversions rather than house moves with all the associated expenses.
As most of the work is carpentry is this an area you could exploit?

 

[Jacob]

A bit late to the party but a trend I have noticed which is linked to much of the previous discussion is that expanding young families are opting for lift conversions rather than house moves with all the associated expenses.
As most of the work is carpentry is this an area you could exploit?

Living in a lift could be a bit of a downer. Or is there an upside?
What about stair conversions? Twickenham stairwell up for auction with £20,000 price tag

 

[Trextr7monkey]

Living in a lift could be a bit of a downer. Or is there an upside?
What about stair conversions? Twickenham stairwell up for auction with £20,000 price tag

A bit of both I guess

 

[Jameshow]

I don't think any mainstream party will make a difference, we just go back and forth between two parties and not much forward progress. Change will only happen when people ditch the main two and go for something new. All businesses are struggling but have we not always gone through this cycle of boom and bust, it all comes down to, too many sellers and not enough buyers with disposable cash.

Lib dems and greens would be even worse from a business perspective imo...!

 

[HOJ]

Please don't let this thread drift @BrandonB want's advice and constructive suggestions, not political opinion.

 

[HOJ]

frequently experiencing our quotes ignored and declined

That's the bit you need to look into if you are still sending out quotes with no return do you ask them why.

I know it isn’t how much I’m charging

How do you know, as in above, if you don't ask, are you VAT registered?

We specialise in fitted furniture, wardrobes, alcove units and kitchens

That is a very narrow field of scope, If I relied on "interiors" for all my work I would be out of business its too competitive and many DIYer's tackle them themselves, perhaps people are looking at your quotes just as a guide for themselves to build.

My experience has proved to me it isn't worth getting involved in low budget projects for the return, I have just fitted a £4k Wickes kitchen, we knew we wouldn't get anywhere close on a price, another pal of mine is having a Howdens kitchen that I will fit, again cost driven, and my Mum has just had a 4 door wardrobe with 2 draws, supplied and fitted all for £500.00. All these are evidence that this level of market value is pointless.
I have said this in the past and is my standard approach on new enquiries, ask them how much is the budget, saves an awful lot of wasted time and disappointment, I had one recently to make 2 Oak gates, quite complicated, budget was £1K, a quick price for the raw timber was £600.00, I did offer to do them for £2K, but never had a hope.

Perhaps an avenue to explore is doing Kitchen fitting as well as the option for making.

I am very fortunate I have £0 liabilities so if I do nothing I can still survive, my work scope is very varied but principally based on Joinery, whist not excluding other options as well, and more so working on projects that are long term, at this time I have enough work to see me through to well into next year, which in itself can be an issue as people don't wait for long, but that's not my worry.

My other benefit is my workshop facilities, are cheap to rent @ £200.00/month

Have you seen Alastair Johnson's company Freebird Interiors, he has some useful Utube vids on setting up his company.

 

[BrandonB]

That's the bit you need to look into if you are still sending out quotes with no return do you ask them why.

How do you know, as in above, if you don't ask, are you VAT registered?

That is a very narrow field of scope, If I relied on "interiors" for all my work I would be out of business its too competitive and many DIYer's tackle them themselves, perhaps people are looking at your quotes just as a guide for themselves to build.

My experience has proved to me it isn't worth getting involved in low budget projects for the return, I have just fitted a £4k Wickes kitchen, we knew we wouldn't get anywhere close on a price, another pal of mine is having a Howdens kitchen that I will fit, again cost driven, and my Mum has just had a 4 door wardrobe with 2 draws, supplied and fitted all for £500.00. All these are evidence that this level of market value is pointless.
I have said this in the past and is my standard approach on new enquiries, ask them how much is the budget, saves an awful lot of wasted time and disappointment, I had one recently to make 2 Oak gates, quite complicated, budget was £1K, a quick price for the raw timber was £600.00, I did offer to do them for £2K, but never had a hope.

Perhaps an avenue to explore is doing Kitchen fitting as well as the option for making.

I am very fortunate I have £0 liabilities so if I do nothing I can still survive, my work scope is very varied but principally based on Joinery, whist not excluding other options as well, and more so working on projects that are long term, at this time I have enough work to see me through to well into next year, which in itself can be an issue as people don't wait for long, but that's not my worry.

My other benefit is my workshop facilities, are cheap to rent @ £200.00/month

Have you seen Alastair Johnson's company Freebird Interiors, he has some useful Utube vids on setting up his company.

I do ask clients who mention they've chosen to go with someone else, why that was and if they're able to provide the difference in cost as it's great feedback and helps with future clients. But they usually just ignore that email. I am not currently VAT registered, prehaps the pricing needs to come down abit, but it isn't high from my experience and point of view. I'm not operating with a massive profit margin and I'm very aware of being efficient and selecting certain processes and products based on time to manufacture and working with the client to suit their budget. I typically offer an overall price based on their thoughts and idea for the install and I will include an option to lower the cost if need be. This would involve changing the choice of material/finish or making a few different design choices to limit amont of material needed and time taken to complete the install.
So it's not as if I'm lumping a massive cost in and crossing my fingers hoping it's going to be quids in. I am activily trying to work with the client to give them an install at a fair rate whilst making a profit of course.

The trouble I'm finding is, the barrier to entry is getting lower and easier for people to step into the 'bespoke' market. People who are happy to grab and use the B&Q off the shelf sheet goods, using the clients home/driveway to cut and make the furniture, whilst face fixing everything or using mitre glue to form 'faker shaker style' doors. Not to mention most likely no CAD or design sent over to the client. The entire install left unsanded ready for the client to paint around everything. I'm not knocking it as everyone started from somewhere, but this is the difference in cost and overall quality of the install. Most likely there won't be a big difference in cost either, they're probably charging a little bit less than you would and that's the worst part.

Yes, I speak to Alastair from time to time and about bits and pieces, really knowledgable guy and has been at it for a fair few years. I believe the work is out there because instagram is full of makers/fitted furniture companies constantly pushing their latest installs and designs for clients, so people are still spending and those lads aren't going to be cheap as they have similar setups to myself. I'm lucky in the sense that I could if I want to go into kitchen fitting or into site bashing as I'm more than capable of both. When you've worked so hard to reach a point in your career and you find it isn't working out or the work isn't there for you, but it looks like it's there for everyone else. It's very frustrationing to say the least.

ps. I've always found if you ask the client what is there budget, most of the time the answer is 'i don't know, how much does it cost?' before you've had a chance to work out the amount of material needed and design. so you end up doing the leg work for an expected cost to either be ignored or given the go ahead.

 

[johnnyb]

all joinery is basically a hard sell to 95% of the population. People have almost no taste only what the latest fashion is.( currently weber rend)
if you can feed into that work can be easy. if your offering something from 10 years ago then it's already at the bottom. take black worktops with white sparkles. they were soo desirable 15 years ago now there super cheap and a bit chivvy. quartz worktops ditto. as a bespoke maker and being only 28 you need to be way ahead of everybody here. what the latest bilge will be I don't know but you will be way ahead of me!
flush casement plastic windows

 

[Adam W.]

I don't believe most of what happens on Instagram or Youtube and I wouldn't take it as any indication that people are still spending or that the guys you see performing on the internet have any work either and they won't tell you if they didn't.

Work is drying up, that's a fact, even for the large scale operators and the only indicator of weather there is work for you or not, is if you have any work or not.

You're only 28, it's your first recession and no one knows how long it will last or how deep it will be.

 

[Doug71]

I do think it must be tough specialising in built in furniture because as you say these days anyone with a bit of skill and a track saw can just rock up with a few sheets of MDF and create some impressive results.

I recently got a built in job on the back of the fact that all the other firms the customer spoke with made their shaker doors by just sticking some 6mm MDF on the front of some 12mm MDF. The customer was horrified that a professional would make them like that, I did explain mine would only be 22mm MDF rails and stiles dominoed together with a 9mm MDF panel sitting in a groove but in their opinion mine were proper doors.

 

[Drifter2406]

I work in the Kitchen industry as an engineer, started as a cabinet maker 25 years ago in this firm but started in reproduction furniture in the early 80s, went to college to study Engineering, without going into a lengthy story of jobs, we have seen the industry change numerous times over the years. We create some of the best Kitchens in the industry and charge to suit, I'm not saying it because I work there as it is not a very nice place to work but for the minimum price of a retail Kitchen costing £25000 most of our work used be new builds, whatever price we charge we are still "Junk Joiners" MFC board, dowels and glue. This year we are struggling, we are getting more and more retails because we are chasing them, even the MD has openly said "Lets hope we are still standing at the end of it". We have changed some peoples Kitchens 3 or 4 times, people do not want a product that lasts, they don't want solid wood doors anymore, all Greys and drab colours made out MDF. Carpenters on sites are still earning good money but there are only so many sites. My Son is a Quantity Surveyer and he regularly says that the stuff I create indoors out of timber, the chipy's they employ on site would not know where to start, a very sad state of affairs and when you see some of the work they produce I can understand what he is talking about.
Is there an answer to you question? probably not and I wish you good luck but I think with timber prices going through the roof (Excuse the pun) and people just not wanting timber products I do wonder if there is a future for carpentry based trades.