Tier 4

[FatmanG]

I have rarely read such drivel.

Couldn't agree more!! Try spell check before you post it may make some sense.

The rest of your article is academic nonsense. governments are not in the business of using pandemics to create autocracies - especially since we've had one for decades.

Amazing statement

 

[billw]

Was Sunny delight promoted and advertised as junk food ?

You might think government and the health service would point out how bad it is for you.

The ASA should have dealt with that.

As for the government and health service, well asking them to point out that SD had lots of sugar in would be the same as pointing out that polo mints have a lot of sugar, or that sugar is actually quite sugary when you look at it. Should they have government campaigns?

My annoyance is that people see fat as a bad component in a diet, when really it's the glut of refined carbs that we eat that are a bigger problem - you know, the ones that erm...convert into fat. Eating fat is fine as long as calories in is less or equal to calories burned on average. Yes the same applies to refined carbs, but people don't see carbs as the problem because nobody goes round saying "oh wow look how carb that man is!"

 

[Jake]

Check out the WHO and do some proper research.

Please explain your understanding of how the mRNA vaccines work.

I am genuinely curious as to where you are getting your information from - it is incredible.

 

[Artiglio]

Isn;t that going to be shot down as fat shaming?

Depends if the politically correct brigade decides to get involved, sensibly speaking the nhs is more than aware of the negative consequences of excess weight, they are only offering the vouchers there is no compulsion , so bopefully it’ll be seen as offering a helping hand to those that want it.
When i had my nhs checkup at 50 it was more than i could do not to laugh when i. Was told by the nurse ( who closely resembled two spacehoppers glued together) that it would be beneficial if i lost 2-3kg. (To bring my BMI under 25). Otherwise they’d advise i took statins. ( at the time i was a commercial diver and of above fitness for my age). Tick box culture at its best, but i lost the weight and went back 3 weeks later to be reweighed and have the records amended, by another obese nurse.
My local hospital had a nurse die from covid, in the papers reported as the tragic death of a dedicated 35 year old mother of 3 with no underlying health conditions the story had her picture ( which was certainly not one of a 35 year old) but ask her colleagues and she was a lovely lady rather larger than a small house. So many people having their lives curtailed or future health further hampered by long covid purely as a result of excess weight is a massive failure of societies attitude and our health policies.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I had the same years ago. I was 14st, fighting fit, not carrying much fat when I saw a specialist who told me I shouldn't be 11st and sent me to a dietician. To her credit she said there was no way on this earth was I meant to be under 11st and to aim for 13st. She wasn't an inspiration, though, she was about 13st and 5'.

 

[artie]

Just chipping in to congratulate my self for saying nothing.

 

[FatmanG]

Please explain your understanding of how the mRNA vaccines work.

I am genuinely curious as to where you are getting your information from - it is incredible.

OK
The mRNA vaccine does not use the virus it uses a protein fragment in form of an mRNA trigger that is supposedly associated with a surface protein of the caronavirus.
WHO 2016 Efficacy of a vaccine paper I quote
" Vaccine Efficacy is most commonly a measure of the proportionate reduction in disease attack rate (AR) between the control rate of those who did not receive the vaccination of the infectious disease under study (ARU) and the vaccinated (ARV) group(s). Vaccine efficacy can be calculate BT the relative risk (RR) of the disease among the vaccinated group as (ARU-ARV/ARU) *100 and (1-RR)*100. This estimate may be referred to as absolute vaccine efficacy.

www.who.int./biologicals/experts_committee/clinical_changes_ik_final.PDF

"Our trial will not demonstrate prevention of transmission", Zak said, "because in order to do that would require to swab people twice a week for very long periods and that becomes operationally untenable".

Tal Zak's, chief operations officer at Modern. www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4037

Quite clear to me

 

[Yorkieguy]

A side effect of this thread is that the law of unintended consequences has come into play to keep us all safe and out of harm's way - I guess it could be termed 'care in the community'. While we're sat pecking away at the keyboard & squinting at the monitor, we're not exposed to C-19. No need to wear a mask, we're full socially-distanced and it's warm and dry. Don't even need to wear my Trend air-shield helmet - not making any shavings or dust. A sort of self-induced 'lockdown' by default.

Tier 4? Bring it on - we must already be on Tier 10! Chris Witty would be enthralled - 'Next Slide Please'...

 

[FatmanG]

When this c19 came about it scared me to death. I got an infection in my leg that turned into a fever and I thought I was dying. If I could of seen a Dr I wouldn't of become so Ill as antibiotics would of cleared it up. That's an unintended consequence of the virus and response. I'm lucky but god knows how many others were in a similar position who were not so lucky.

 

[Ditch 08]

The way I see this whole lockdown / Covid tier system is....here goes...It's a massive power grab. A power grab with addition of public funds, those funds (tax payers money, yours and mine) have been shifted from public hands into private. 12 Billion GBP to Serco for example. The virus is real, it kills people, but so does every other disease on the planet. We all die. Our freedoms has been eroded right before our eyes and right under our noses.

My view (which I suspect is wholly opposite to 90% of the views on here) may sound outrageous to you but it's always healthy to consider an opposing opinion before immediately discounting it because it's the polar opposite to "mine". If allowed to carry on there will be no economy left. The talk of Universal Income is horrifying. People should be able to earn their own money, run their own businesses & all without a heavy handed State ordering people around. This is meant to a Democracy we live in!

This virus has been weaponized & politicized in order to control the masses by governments all over the world and have allowed laws to be passed (Yes LAWS) with ZERO debate and NO VOTES by our MP's in Parliament under the guise of "it's a pandemic" a "national crisis" unprecedented in peace time Britain - all I've said here are verifiable facts, please, go ahead i urge you to look up them for yourself.

The human body can fight off any disease known or unknown if the immune system isn't compromised. For example take the time to READ the life's works of the Austrian herbalist Maria Treben. Pharmacological medicine is allopathic, it treats symptoms & not the body as a holistic whole. Another example, if one looks at the life of Paracelsus the Swiss Physician one would find the mixture of herbs (11 in fact) known commonly as "Swedish Bitters". Bitter foods have been lost in the UK/US Western diet. The taste bitter isn't bad for you it's GOOD for you. Besides the benefits for ones digestion and a whole load of other diseases this can stop the onslaught of the latter stages of Covid (aka - an upper respiratory infections) never mind stopping it dead in it's tracks. The latter stages of Covid are known as a "Ketone storm" where the immune system attacks itself and organ failure starts to kicks in. I really think herbal medicine has it's place in our NHS, if not people should wake up to its efficacy. I know this all sounds too good to be true but for someone who had all the hallmarks of the disease back in mid January (I'm in my late 30's, played football and rugby and done many martial arts all my life - i'm fairly fit bloke - I couldn't get halfway up the stairs! I do an active job, telecoms engineer - climbing ladders etc etc) of this year I have followed my own advice and recovered using this simple but powerful concoction of herbs.

I'm not saying the clinically vulnerable shouldn't shield, I'm not saying go around hugging each other and have 20 over at Christmas, all I'm saying is that for millennia humans have healed with herbs and western medicine and science isn't the magic elixir for all our ills and ailments. Listening to the radio and news, with it's body count and infection rate over and over for the past 9 months and you will start to believe what is spoon fed to you. It will also make to so unbelievably scared out of your mind that you are unable to leave your bedroom let alone your house! Even if you are perfectly fit and well! For your body to 'able' and your mind to 'sick' because someone 'a professor!' has told you so! Now that makes me so ANGRY...… REALLY ANGRY!

All this post is about is a plea to your thinking brain, your logical brain - I'm begging you to all THINK. I'm a key worker in telecoms, I respect all others opinions, I abide by all the 'rules'! I won't stand too close to you at Tesco's and I wash my hands, wear gloves and a mask as i'm told to do but it doesn't mean I agree with it. I find the waste and damage to the environment abhorrent. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, i'm not an anti anything. I'm a man, a human like you and I CARE. I CARE about my fellow man/woman & the environment we live in and the freedoms we all have clearly taken for granted.

What does concern me greatly is miss-information and people being brainwashed. Brainwashed and robbed. Robbed by people whom millions voted for. Politicians of whichever color, on whichever side of the House are not out for you or I - They are out for themselves.

You cannot blindly accept what 'they' tell you without considering another's opinion. Otherwise you haven't got a chance of defending your own.

Ps - I love wood, I love woodworking in all it's forms. I did a year long professional designer maker course on a sabbatical from my employer 18months ago and it was the best time of my life - there are time served tradesmen on this forum all working with such a beautiful material, I doff my cap to you all. My plan is to earn a living working with wood. May you all have a magical Christmas/Festive Period & New Year. Here's to a great 2021.

*Steps down off soapbox*

It is good that we are able to discus this little/big issue. Boris is dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't. In an ideal situation we would be given guide lines and they would trust us to take responsibility for our own actions. But unfortunately there are those who don't, and they f#*k it up for all of us. I have not seen my grand children since last Easter and now don't know when I can. Then you have those who set the rules that don't follow them, Sturgeon was at a party with no mask, she will not resign unlike those she made to. At least BJ follows his rules.

At the end of the day, there is something killing people and we each need to take responsibility for ourselves and if you survive then you are the luckly one.

Merry Christmas everyone and those that survive hear from you next year.

P.S. the earth is not flat.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Really what is happening is that almost invariably very old people are dying, either old people dying a few weeks/months sooner than we might have expected or dying later than they "should have" (harvesting effect).

Oh that's alright then. My mother died on the 13th, she was 79 so not VERY old. Just another statistic.

And for those not aware of increased death rates, the local crematorium is backed up until mid January and all slots are being used.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

all the slots are being used .................. unfortunate choice of wording, there.

 

[Misterdog]

As for the government and health service, well asking them to point out that SD had lots of sugar in would be the same as pointing out that polo mints have a lot of sugar, or that sugar is actually quite sugary when you look at it. Should they have government campaigns?

They did, in the form of the sugar tax, which has pushed manufacturers to reduce sugar content.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43659124

My annoyance is that people see fat as a bad component in a diet, when really it's the glut of refined carbs that we eat that are a bigger problem - you know, the ones that erm...convert into fat.

Carbs are actually converted into sugars.

The body breaks down or converts most carbohydrates into the sugar glucose. Glucose is absorbed into the bloodstream, and with the help of a hormone called insulin it travels into the cells of the body where it can be used for energy.

Or in excess converted to fat . Though years of excess insulin production leads to Diabetes.
Which brings us back to another source of increased risk of Covid death.

The World Health Organization (WHO) also estimated the global prevalence of diabetes in 2000 and 2030–171 million people with diabetes in 2000 and 366 million by 2030

For decades we have been led to believe that carbs are good and that Cholesterol is the evil enemy.
How many know that 70% of the Cholesterol in your body is actually manufactured by your own liver ?
Why would your body manufacture a 'poison'?

It was this particular subject that started me reading Dr Mercola over 10 years ago.
Because my renal consultants prescribed me an overdose of Statins after I developed Membranous Glomerulonephritis.
Dr Mercola's introduction into the Cholesterol/Statin pathways led to more research finally leading me to a paper from the NHS saying that taking Ciclosporin amplifies the effect of Statins 10 fold !!. I was taking both.
To find that paper was the result of several days research.
Though as some have shown earlier the first hit on Google for Dr Mercola denounces him as a quack.
I suspect these people would also accept the words of a renal consultant as gospel.

Interesting that these pharmaceutical companies earning trillions are more interested in denouncing Dr Mercola to protect their profits, than they are making health care professionals aware of dangers from their products.

Anyone wishing to know the effects of too little Cholesterol in the body ? Research is free though time consuming.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

JD Rockerfella and his taking over the medical institutes mid 1900's is to blame for what's bad about big pharma and the total elimination of 1000s of years of herbal medicine. I'm not saying the profession is all bad. There's been a massive over reliance on antibiotics, tablets in general in the West and vaccines, well that's another stifled debate. In 2016 the WHO changed the definition of a vaccine. This C19 vaccine is nothing resembling what the pre 2016 definition was. It is a RNA therapeutic that's no more adept at controlling the spread of the virus than Uri Gueller. It only controls symptoms, that's is it, but if you look at the listed side effects of the vaccine they are the exact same as the virus itself! What a con job if ever there was one and GOD knows the long term effects. I'm beginning to wonder if the vaccine was responsible for all the 10s of 1000s of the registered dead being able to rise up and vote in America? If you speak out against the MSM narrative you are a conspiracy theorist. I've been called a murderer by a women at my chemist for not wearing a mask, I'm exempt by the way. People are being deceived and divided in Europe and America for reasons too scary to think about. All I know is that the men in this country are weak and spineless and letting all fabric of society be destroyed with barely a whimper. Follow the science my a#$e

Wibble....

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Depends if the politically correct brigade decides to get involved, sensibly speaking the nhs is more than aware of the negative consequences of excess weight, they are only offering the vouchers there is no compulsion , so bopefully it’ll be seen as offering a helping hand to those that want it.
When i had my nhs checkup at 50 it was more than i could do not to laugh when i. Was told by the nurse ( who closely resembled two spacehoppers glued together) that it would be beneficial if i lost 2-3kg. (To bring my BMI under 25). Otherwise they’d advise i took statins. ( at the time i was a commercial diver and of above fitness for my age). Tick box culture at its best, but i lost the weight and went back 3 weeks later to be reweighed and have the records amended, by another obese nurse.
My local hospital had a nurse die from covid, in the papers reported as the tragic death of a dedicated 35 year old mother of 3 with no underlying health conditions the story had her picture ( which was certainly not one of a 35 year old) but ask her colleagues and she was a lovely lady rather larger than a small house. So many people having their lives curtailed or future health further hampered by long covid purely as a result of excess weight is a massive failure of societies attitude and our health policies.

Spacehoppers glued together!! - my wife's wondering why I've just spluttered my coffee across the table....

 

[paulrbarnard]

all the slots are being used .................. unfortunate choice of wording, there.

It's what the undertaker called them.

 

[Jake]

The mRNA vaccine does not use the virus it uses a protein fragment in form of an mRNA trigger that is supposedly associated with a surface protein of the caronavirus.

Kind of. The mRNA is an instruction set, it triggers some of your own cells to produce the C-19 spike protein which the virus uses to bind to another protein enzyme (ACE2) which is on the outside of some human cells.

With real virus, once the spike binds to the ACE2 receptor, a second part of the spike protein alters the cell membrane to alter it so the virus can get into the cell, where the RNA in the core of the virus effectively takes control of the cell to turn it into a factory for making more copies of the virus.

With the vaccine, some cells will execute the mRNA instruction set and make copies of just the spike protein instead of the whole virus (the virus's RNA payload isn't part of the mRNA instruction set at all). The immune system (wondrous marvel of nature) then recognises the spike protein as foreign and generates antibodies which bind to the spike protein (with the antibody stuck on to the spike that neutralises its ability to bind to the ACE2 receptor, so it can no longer get into cells) and also learns to kill cells that are making copies of spike protein (which would later include cells making the whole virus in the event of a real infection).

The Oxford one uses an older technique which is much the same but instead of encapsulating and injecting mRNA directly, it delivers the mRNA as a modified payload in a chimpanzee virus which has been deactivated so it cannot reproduce.

WHO 2016 Efficacy of a vaccine paper I quote
" Vaccine Efficacy is most commonly a measure of the proportionate reduction in disease attack rate (AR) between the control rate of those who did not receive the vaccination of the infectious disease under study (ARU) and the vaccinated (ARV) group(s). Vaccine efficacy can be calculate BT the relative risk (RR) of the disease among the vaccinated group as (ARU-ARV/ARU) *100 and (1-RR)*100. This estimate may be referred to as absolute vaccine efficacy.

www.who.int./biologicals/experts_committee/clinical_changes_ik_final.PDF

"Our trial will not demonstrate prevention of transmission", Zak said, "because in order to do that would require to swab people twice a week for very long periods and that becomes operationally untenable".

Tal Zak's, chief operations officer at Modern. www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4037

Quite clear to me

I am not sure what you are getting at here. No vaccine or immunity can stop infection. The efficacy of immunity (whether originally naturally acquired or stimulated by a vaccine) is about whether the infection turns into a disease. The WHO quote is about the disease state. On the other hand, the Moderna COO is talking about whether they are able to prove that the body's immunity can act fast enough in suppressing an infection progressing to a disease state so as to stop the virus from replicating and transmitting during the pre-symptomatic phase of an infection. There is nothing at all inconsistent between those two things.

 

[Misterdog]

The immune system (wondrous marvel of nature)

Nail on the head.

Our immune system is what has protected us for centuries, and allowed us to become the dominant species on this planet.
It is our most effective defence against Covid.

Should we not concentrate more effort into optimising it ?
(Though an argument could be made for saying that is what a vaccine does.) The problem is that creating a new drug can generate billions, whereas testing everyone's Vit C, D levels has no profit.

We have had a vaccine against the flu since the 1940's yet we have never conquered it.
In 2020 some > 20,000 died in this country from it, though that was under a Labour government so many prefer not to think about it.

People think that because we can land men on the moon and change a 0 into a 1 that science should be able to conquer something as 'simple' as a virus.

 

[Rorschach]

Oh that's alright then. My mother died on the 13th, she was 79 so not VERY old. Just another statistic.

My condolences.

 

[FatmanG]

Kind of. The mRNA is an instruction set, it triggers some of your own cells to produce the C-19 spike protein which the virus uses to bind to another protein enzyme (ACE2) which is on the outside of some human cells.

With real virus, once the spike binds to the ACE2 receptor, a second part of the spike protein alters the cell membrane to alter it so the virus can get into the cell, where the RNA in the core of the virus effectively takes control of the cell to turn it into a factory for making more copies of the virus.

With the vaccine, some cells will execute the mRNA instruction set and make copies of just the spike protein instead of the whole virus (the virus's RNA payload isn't part of the mRNA instruction set at all). The immune system (wondrous marvel of nature) then recognises the spike protein as foreign and generates antibodies which bind to the spike protein (with the antibody stuck on to the spike that neutralises its ability to bind to the ACE2 receptor, so it can no longer get into cells) and also learns to kill cells that are making copies of spike protein (which would later include cells making the whole virus in the event of a real infection).

The Oxford one uses an older technique which is much the same but instead of encapsulating and injecting mRNA directly, it delivers the mRNA as a modified payload in a chimpanzee virus which has been deactivated so it cannot reproduce.



I am not sure what you are getting at here. No vaccine or immunity can stop infection. The efficacy of immunity (whether originally naturally acquired or stimulated by a vaccine) is about whether the infection turns into a disease. The WHO quote is about the disease state. On the other hand, the Moderna COO is talking about whether they are able to prove that the body's immunity can act fast enough in suppressing an infection progressing to a disease state so as to stop the virus from replicating and transmitting during the pre-symptomatic phase of an infection. There is nothing at all inconsistent between those two things.

The point I was making was the change of vaccine definition in 2016 as per the post you questioned!
The 2 quotes clearly and unequivocally prove the point.
The vaccine for covid 19 is basically a treatment that only reduces symptoms. It does nothing, zip,jingle bells in stopping transmission therefore is not much different to hydroxychloriquine and zinc, remdizivir, vit c,d et all. Only it could be far more dangerous and an absolute fortune to the people.