Thoughts on sash window costs & time

[markturner]

So I am making some sash windows from scratch for a neighbour and have completed the first three. Bearing in mind I dont have a professional workshop and did al the machining etc using a router table I wonder what you guys think of the costs and times so far. I ordered the cill section ready profiled and the other timber at approx size, so still had to do some machining to size. I am using sapele. There are 2 single sash windows approx 1m wide and one triple, approx 1.8m wide, which I counted as 2 windows, so 4 in total.

I have spent around £2,600 on timber, £900 on glass & glazing, and £1,200 on sash weights, cords, beads, weather seals etc. £200 on sundries Total just under 5K

Time wise, It took me 140 hours ro make the 4, so around 35 hours a window. I can improve on this next batch by pre ordering a lot more timber exactly machined, I reckon I can easily do the next batch in aroun 27 hours a window. So each window is approx £2,500. Should drop to £2,200 a window next batch I think.....

What do you guys think of those costs and times? I am charging him £35 and hour.

 

[Bingy man]

This is not my field as I’m not professional or do I make windows but I would say how does your customer feel about 2.5 k per window, given your time and effort how do you feel given the hours you have committed so far , if you are both happy with the arrangement then why charge less for the next batch -the fact you have got a little quicker is hopefully keeping you in profit. I’m assuming the cust has paid for the materials and you are now covering your labour .. just my thoughts as what tradesmen charge and what customers expect to pay are often miles apart ..

 

[Fitzroy]

If you search for made to measure sash windows there are online sites where a 1mx1.8m weighted box sash window in hardwood costs £2k incl Vat.

It took me about 20hrs to make three sash boxes including milling the sill profiles, I had previously made a single window and making three boxes only added perhaps 50% time above making a single box. There is lots of time-saving thinking about workflow and making the same parts all in one go.

The timber cost sounds high. My three windows 1.5x1 and 2 at 1.5x0.6 are coming in at £400 for redwood doubling for Sapele and doubling for window size is £1600.

I'm paying £85/m2 for glazing 4x4, softcoat internal, warmedge, argon filled. Which looks similar to your costs.

£1200 for weights, cords, beads, seals etc sounds a lot. I'm looking at about £150 per window without weights. Iron weights look much cheaper than lead, and I've found prices vary considerably online.

Fitz.

 

[Windows]

How does the £1200 on weights, seals, etc break down?

 

[meccarroll]

I would say if you are getting £35 an hour that's fine and if your neibour wants more made then he is also happy so just keep the charges the same so you can improve your facilities.

 

[markturner]

Thanks, I think he is happy, I do have some leftover timber and beads ( brought tubes of 15 lengths of each for example, which was £500 for 2 with the already fitted seals, from reddiseals ltd) ) The 7 kilo lead weights were around £24 each, I need them lead for the size ( 38mm wide) . There is also £100 in there for fasteners at £10 each and £50 for a roll of additional seals which obviously I wont use all of. I guess its always going to be more expensive to pay someone to do stuff by hand that a joinery shop could crank out. But the replies make me think I am in the right ballpark. Its heartening I did not get 5 replies saying I was charging way too much!

Also, a chunk of the timber cost was getting some custom architraves made up , enough for 7 windows. Also correct that I have learned a lot doing the first batch and will hopefully avoid various mistakes and wasted time in the second batch

 

[Against_The_Grain]

So each window is approx £2,500. Should drop to £2,200 a window next batch I think.....

That's not an absolutely awful price, about in line with what most professionals are changing I think but most will be producing them from Accoya at that price, what material are you using?

 

[markturner]

Sapele - what are your thoughts on Acoya? I really like the way sapele machines, being very dense......not keen on softwood.....

 

[niall Y]

When I first started out, all those years ago, a 6' x 4' boxed sash window was £250, This was redwood with a hardwood cill. I reached my pricing by phoning other joinery firms for prices. I was't the cheapest, which was £180, but this didn't have a hardwood cill and was made of whitewood. My prices included priming and hardware but not weights, which were usually swapped out from the existing windows.

Fast forward to today your pricing sounds about right, especially for hardwood. though it will help if you phone around for a few quotes in your local area. This will give you a bit more confidence that you are charging the right price.

EDIT.
Of course, the element missing from your price and something a, professional would have to charge, is overheads. When I was running my workshop, this amounted to about 30 per cent of the price. If you had to take this away from the price you are charging then your hourly might not seem so attractive.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Sapele - what are your thoughts on Acoya? I really like the way sapele machines, being very dense......not keen on softwood.....

Accoya is OK, and that's about it. As far as stable timber goes you can't really get much better as it has very little seasonal movement, but the quality of the boards coming through now is very poor with extensive voids, shakes, and knots, but it is still very expensive in spite of this.

Sapele might be better now but there was a time when everyone was having serious issues with it warping after manufacture and extreme seasonal movement, I personally saw doors swell to the point that they could not physically be opened until drier weather.

Softwood is generally a waste of time, particularly in exposed areas like the coast. Some people claim you can put magical linseed oil paints and etetera on top of it and it will last a century but most of these people only work in-land and have never had to deal with sea air and common extreme weather.

 

[Ollie78]

Sapele - what are your thoughts on Acoya? I really like the way sapele machines, being very dense......not keen on softwood.....

I stopped using accoya when the prices went mental.
It is good stuff and machines nicely but its a little bit brittle and not keen on hand planing, so very sharp blades required. Also smells like vineger and the dust is very fine and static clings on everything. The other thing is you must use polyurethane glue which invariably goes where it shouldn't.
I use Utile mostly, like Sapele but straighter grain as a rule with less interlocking figure.
Have been experimenting a bit with Abodo heat treated radiata pine, it machines well but I worry it is a bit soft, a bit like cedar, smells burnt as well.
It is hard to find good redwood but southern yellow pine is pretty nice for softwood, more pitch piney, smells lush.

I think your prices sound generally reasonable.