There are shavings and then there are SHAVINGS!!

[Aled Dafis]

I guarantee that the S&S plane that produced the endgrain shaving which prompted the thread will have a very sharp blade and an extremely tight mouth opening.

What makes you so sure that this is an end grain shaving? I'm almost certain that it isn't. As mentioned earlier in this thread Konrad usually uses straight grained Maple to test his planes, but I did once see him effortlessly smooth the nastiest piece of rock maple I've ever seen with one of his panel planes.

Cheers

Aled

 

[woodbrains]

It looks like endgrain to me; it certainly isn't long grain from a piece of mild mannered maple. If it is long grain from a piece which is wild and curly, then it is even more likely that the planes mouth is minute. The finest long grain shavings I generally produce are immeasurably thin, though, and certainly can't be un-rolled flat to measure with a mic. (as if I could be bothered) Just as an aside, slightly, the best Japanese planes have no mouth opening at all, relying on some compliance in the blade seating to let the gossamer like shavings through.

No-one has explained the benefit of a wide mouth for end grain, though. The best anyone has come up with essentially says it is no worse. But if, like me, you occasionally want to use your shoulder or LA block on long grain, the low angle blade will suck wind on anything more ornery than Konrad's mild mannered maple. It can only be helped with a narrow mouth, so why have anything else? You certainly do not need to ever open it up for coarse work, since these planes are meant for fine fitting and fettling of fine joints etc. I would contend that the most likely reason why adjustable mouth planes are produced is not for 'coarse or fine' work as much as a production expedient. It is very difficult to mass produce planes with such fine tolerances so having making them retro adjustable means the manufacturers don't have to make them fine in the first place. Most people I know (James Krenov for one) would adjust their LA block for a fine mouth and then remove the adjusting lever, essentially making it the fine fixed mouth plane it should have been to begin with.

Mike.

 

[Aled Dafis]

It looks like endgrain to me; it certainly isn't long grain from a piece of mild mannered maple.

Really? Ron Brese managed a very similar shaving from one of his planes on a very similar wood.

This is a typical shaving i.e. showing a rippled texture, from a high angle smoother, the higher the pitch, the more rippled the shaving becomes IMHE.

I'll give my smoother a go tomorrow night to see what I get, I don't think that I've ever used it on Sycamore (my Maple substitute) to be honest.

Cheers
Aled

 

[woodbrains]

I did kind of imply that if it were long grain, it would by curly figured and not plain maple, if it were not endgrain as I thought. It is fairly pointless demonstating how a high angle smoother will perform on mild timbers, as the partial scraping action wouldn't provide the best surfave in this instance. That shaving on the curly maple is rather satisfying though.

Still no-one coming up with any thoughts on why wide mouths for endgrain is advantageous?

Mike.

 

[newt]

Mike No one suggested there was an advantage, just that it may not be essential.

 

[woodbrains]

Mike No one suggested there was an advantage, just that it may not be essential.

Now this is confusing. I'm certain Karl Holtey doesn't do things without reason, so logically there must be a perceived advantage in wider mouths, or else his shoulder planes don't in fact have them, apart from the odd exception, or perhaps special request. If I was mad/lucky enough to spend those sorts of prices on a plane, I'm certain I'd want the mouth as finely detailed as the rest; otherwise a chisel driven into a block of wood would suffice, if there was no advantage.

I regrettably gave away to a good friend in Vermont, a HNT Gordon shoulder plane. It is about as close to a chisel in a block of wood as you can get. Obviously a lot more refined. It had a high angle blade set bevel down, which is unusual and a fine mouth. It performed extremely well on end and long grain and cost less than 100 quid at the time, though are a bit pricier now. I should have kept it, as it had everything you could want, comfortable to use, gave great results and sensibly priced for an everyday tool. Not as fancy pants as a Holtey, but I like the look of them, too.

mike.

 

[bugbear]

One of the reasons for a narrow(ish) mouth on a plane like a shoulder or rebate is NOT to do with how well it take shavings.

In a plane with no lateral margins (in Jeff Gorman's terminology) it is possible for the arris of the workpiece (at the start of the stroke) to jam into the planing aperture, if the plane isn't sitting down nicely flush/horizontal by that stage. The smaller the aperture, the less chance there is of this undesirable event occuring.

To be explicit, this argument may explain why a 1/32" mouth is to be preferred to a 1/8" mouth, but does not explain why a 2/1000" mouth would be preferred over a 1/32"

BugBear

 

[Alf]

Mike No one suggested there was an advantage, just that it may not be essential.

Now this is confusing. I'm certain Karl Holtey doesn't do things without reason, so logically there must be a perceived advantage in wider mouths, or else his shoulder planes don't in fact have them, apart from the odd exception, or perhaps special request.

Um... if there's no perceived advantage in an incredibly fine mouth, making said plane with one would also be doing something for no reason, wouldn't it? I think I may have got lost in this discussion somewhere...

 

[woodbloke]

I think I may have got lost in this discussion somewhere...

+1..is it important, does it matter? The main thing is that you as an individual have a plane(s) that can remove shavings from end grain or whatever and more importantly (for me anyway) they can be used to actually make things - Rob

 

[bugbear]

I think I may have got lost in this discussion somewhere...

+1..is it important, does it matter? The main thing is that you as an individual have a plane(s) that can remove shavings from end grain or whatever and more importantly (for me anyway) they can be used to actually make things - Rob

It matters when you're making comparisons at point of purchase.

BugBear

 

[woodbloke]

It matters when you're making comparisons at point of purchase.

BugBear

It doesn't if you buy a plane with an adjustable mouth (LA Jack for example) or a LN or Veritas block with the same - Rob

 

[bugbear]

It matters when you're making comparisons at point of purchase.

BugBear

It doesn't if you buy a plane with an adjustable mouth (LA Jack for example) or a LN or Veritas block with the same - Rob

Perhaps that would explain why shoulder and rebate planes have been mentioned in this thread

It is mysterious that no-one has a justification for the hard-to-make super-tight mouths in vintage infill shoulder planes. They can't have been doing it for fun, surely?

BugBear

 

[woodbrains]

Um... if there's no perceived advantage in an incredibly fine mouth, making said plane with one would also be doing something for no reason, wouldn't it? I think I may have got lost in this discussion somewhere...

Isn't the main point of a Holtey is that they are glouriously pointless? Everything is a celebration on doing things as close to perfection as possible. If a tight mouth is neither advantageous or disadvantageous, it seems to me that fudging it at the last by making a crudely coarse mouth is incongruous unless the maker has a good reason (and the 2mm that has been reported earlier IS crude compared to the fine tolerances elsewhere).

Bugbear, I also said myself that a fine mouth makes the plane more controllable at the beginning and end of the cut. I still believe that on rather uncompliant endgrain timbers (Rosewood, Swiss pear etc.), there is a more of a chance of chattering, which I have observed is reduced with a finer mouth. And there is still the chance of using the plane on long grain. Why preclude the plane from being able to do this, for no advantage elswhere?

Of course 2 tho is probably pedantic, but 1/32 is not what I'd call fine either. !/64 is the right sort of margin and does not hamper the planes use in any circumstances that I put it to, so that setting is never changed on my shoulder plane.

Mike.

 

[Alf]

Isn't the main point of a Holtey is that they are glouriously pointless?

I believe that's the sound of a goal post being moved, so I'm outta here. :wink:

 

[woodbloke]

Isn't the main point of a Holtey is that they are glouriously pointless?

I believe that's the sound of a goal post being moved, so I'm outta here. :wink:

Me too...another one of 'those' :roll: discussions - Rob

 

[GazPal]

Isn't the main point of a Holtey is that they are glouriously pointless? Everything is a celebration on doing things as close to perfection as possible. If a tight mouth is neither advantageous or disadvantageous, it seems to me that fudging it at the last by making a crudely coarse mouth is incongruous unless the maker has a good reason (and the 2mm that has been reported earlier IS crude compared to the fine tolerances elsewhere).

Bugbear, I also said myself that a fine mouth makes the plane more controllable at the beginning and end of the cut. I still believe that on rather uncompliant endgrain timbers (Rosewood, Swiss pear etc.), there is a more of a chance of chattering, which I have observed is reduced with a finer mouth. And there is still the chance of using the plane on long grain. Why preclude the plane from being able to do this, for no advantage elswhere?

Of course 2 tho is probably pedantic, but 1/32 is not what I'd call fine either. !/64 is the right sort of margin and does not hamper the planes use in any circumstances that I put it to, so that setting is never changed on my shoulder plane.

Mike.

Pedantic being the operative word. It seems very counter-productive for one to sing high praise of good quality tools - whilst name dropping left, right and centre - only to then label one maker's products as being "gloriously pointless" in the nature of the attention to detail paid during their production???? By definition, all maker's products could be considered pointless if we were to follow the same line of logic as yourself, but each user and maker has his/her own set of criteria and preferences in terms of tools and how they're made, set up and used.

Having a finer throat indeed reduces chatter on more exotically grained timbers, but blade orientation (Square or skew, bevel up or down), blade adjustment (Depth of cut and cant), bed angle, plane heft, etc., all contribute to the overall picture. The reasoning behind adjustable plane throats is flexibility to adapt the cut to the timber being worked and there's no "ideal" or holy grail when dealing with such an organically variable medium as timber.

If the tool works well, use it, regardless of whether it's built by NASA or Bill Smith in his shed, or set to take shavings from a gnat's chin, but always be prepared to adjust settings - if the tool has such scope - to suit the work in hand.

 

[jimi43]

I've got a "Bill Smith" shoulder plane!

:wink:

Jim

 

[yetloh]

I have always been sceptical about the traditional wisdom that a fine mouth reduces tear out and, unless I have misunderstood him, Karl Holtey and some other makers do not believe it either. If that is the case, we should look for another reason why top makers produce planes with fine mouths. I suggest that it may be that the received wisdom about their effect on tear out has led the market to perceive a fine mouth as a mark of quality, so that is what makers provide. The mouths on Holtey planes are indeed quite fine but he certainly does not take it to extremes.

To describe a wide mouth as crude is ridiculous; to an expert maker a narrow mouth is surely no more difficult to make or a sign of quality of making than a narrow one.

Jim

 

[GazPal]

I've got a "Bill Smith" shoulder plane!

:wink:

Jim

Me too lol :lol: :wink:

 

[ali27]

Made some very nice thin shavings today. I have to share with you guys!

I think I can still improve.

Enjoy.