The Wheel Marking Gauge Rant.

[Cheshirechappie]

A recent question about gauges ( marking-gauges-suggestions-t105009.html ) prompted a bit of discussion about gauging technique and gauge types, and somebody (well, alright - me!) opined that that they didn't get on with wheel gauges. That's on the basis of ownership and use of a sum total of one example, so it may not be typical!

However, here's what I don't like.

1) The little screw holding the marking wheel keeps coming loose, leading to a wobbly wheel. Not an aid to accuracy, that.

2) The head has a little O-ring in it to grip the shaft, and stop it falling off. This makes fine adjustment a real faff. You tap the end of the stem on the bench, whereupon the O-ring deforms a bit, and then bounces back. You do the same again, a bit harder, and it jumps 1/16". You turn the gauge round, and tap the other end of the stem - ditto repeato. Etcetera.

3) There's not much to get hold of - not like a nice, hand-sized wooden one, anyway. That leads to something mighty like finger cramps, and a slight loss of the delicacy of touch marking out sometimes needs.

4) Been mentioned before by others, this one; it's not easy to work up to a line with a wheel gauge, so things like marking hinge sinkings is trickier than it could be.

Well - it seems at least one other person on the planet has some sympathy with my view. This video is a bit long and rambling - well, OK, it's a LOT long and rambling - but it does make some reasonable points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HgRtpwozIM

On the basis of my experience, if any other wheel gauge somehow mistakenly found it's way into the CC Towers workshop, it is quite likely to exit again mucho pronto, on an approximately parabolic trajectory, followed by a stream of terrible Anglo-Saxon curses.

****Rant Mode Off***

Phew. Feel better now...

Alright - so that was a little bit exaggerated for dramatic effect, but the core point stands - I prefer the older style of gauge. They're usually of wood, but some examples in metal are about. They're easier to set, nicer to hold, and the wheels don't fall off because they haven't got any.

Now, I fully accept that others have used wheel gauges happily and like them. Fine - each to their own. However, I wonder if it's worth giving the old sort a thought; after all, the materials to make a boxful of wooden-bodied gauges cost less than one new decent quality wheel gauge, and home-made can always be modified and adapted to solve a particular problem.

Wheel gauges have been around for decades (the Melhuish catalogue of 1927 on the Toolemera website lists one, for example), but craftsmen of old didn't seem take to them, given that they rarely crop up as 'vintage'.

So with Rant Mode on again - and do bear in mind this is intended to be light-hearted and a bit tongue-in-cheek - are fancy wheel gauges more a modern fashion statement than a pragmatic and effective solution to a marking-out problem?

 

[DoctorWibble]

are fancy wheel gauges more a modern fashion statement than a pragmatic and effective solution to a marking-out problem?

They might be both. I didn't get on with mine either - it had a wandering wheel. Or at least with me driving it did. But I've seen videos of people making very appealing use of theirs.

As for toolmakers they are an easy thing to make and distribute and allow the use of tiny quantities of exotic woods, glowing brass and shiny stainless shafts. For companies like LN they might well be one of their highest margin lines. Mind you the toolmakers of old viewed marking gauges in a similar vein. They too were sometimes fashion statements of a sort. I wonder if that started because gauges allowed commercial use of offcuts from expensive timbers? Maybe someone thought you know maybe we could glue on some brass to this and charge serious money.

 

[G S Haydon]

I could not agree more, CC!

Here's another issue. The much celebrated "tite-mark" http://www.glen-drake.com/Adjustable-Mortise-Blade.html and also the fixed width variations. So now I need small allen keys to set my mortise gauge with? And I have to buy a fixed width version? So I better be sure that my chisel and the glen drake are made exactly the same. There's vintage chisels out the window.

I agree also that some find use for them, and that's great. I would not own or use one, even if you paid me. The blooming things have even become a point of ethical and moral purchasing. I say melt them down for scrap and make something useful out of them, like a bottle opener .

 

[Jacob]

I've spent hundreds of hours marking up with gauges over the years and the cheapo trad wooden ones, single pin, knife or mortice, are the best by far and a pleasure to use. You need several, each set appropriately to take you through a job from beginning to end without having to reset

 

[Peter Sefton]

My personal preference is to use traditional wooden gauges, but I find new comers to woodworking find the wheel marking gauges easier to use and get better results quicker. CC is also correct in saying some of the wheel marking gauges are small in the hand and can give hand cramps if used for any length of time.

Having said all that I was demonstrating using them all this afternoon and found myself using the Veritas Dual marking gauge for marking my timber to thickness, and one of the students who had just bought one say how great it was to use!

Cheers Peter

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Mind you the toolmakers of old viewed marking gauges in a similar vein. They too were sometimes fashion statements of a sort. I wonder if that started because gauges allowed commercial use of offcuts from expensive timbers? Maybe someone thought you know maybe we could glue on some brass to this and charge serious money.

Actually, that's a fair point - gauges don't need to be of ebony and brass. There again, they did take what was a sound, working design to start with, and just substituted 'nicer' materials for bog-standard beech. Didn't make the gauge any more effective, but didn't make it less effective, either.

"Ere, 'ow about we inset this fancy brass escutcheon round the clamp screw?"

"How yer gonner do that, then?"

"Got this fancy passer drill...."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAaaLSJ6Ykk

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I say melt them down for scrap and make something useful out of them, like a bottle opener .

Now you're talking my language, there, Graham! After all, a wooden bottle opener might not last too well .... use the appropriate materials for the appropriate job!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

..... and one of the students who had just bought one say how great it was to use!

Cheers Peter

I wonder what he'll say about marking gauges in twenty years time.... :lol:

 

[Peter Sefton]

..... and one of the students who had just bought one say how great it was to use!

Cheers Peter

I wonder what he'll say about marking gauges in twenty years time.... :lol:

He didn't bring any of his own tools with him on this one week course but I get the feeling he has owned wooden marking gauges for a few years already.

Cheers Peter

 

[Ttrees]

I got the dual screw wheel marking guage from Axminster after trying to use an old wooden one.
I ended up with multiple lines with the wooden one ...
The wooden ones strike me as something you make yourself so you just toss it and make another if it has flaws.
I haven't noticed the wheel coming loose from the shaft on mine, although I have not used it much.
Its a bit of a faff to set though, as the tip of the screw doesn't mate with the slot in the shaft.

Has anyone fixed this problem or tried and it made the problem worse ?
I have not used the twist adjust on it....it looks pointless.
Tom

 

[D_W]

I could not agree more, CC!

Here's another issue. The much celebrated "tite-mark" http://www.glen-drake.com/Adjustable-Mortise-Blade.html and also the fixed width variations. So now I need small allen keys to set my mortise gauge with? And I have to buy a fixed width version? So I better be sure that my chisel and the glen drake are made exactly the same. There's vintage chisels out the window.

I agree also that some find use for them, and that's great. I would not own or use one, even if you paid me. The blooming things have even become a point of ethical and moral purchasing. I say melt them down for scrap and make something useful out of them, like a bottle opener .

Having to find other tools to adjust tools - not handy.

Warren suggested on another forum that someone who needs a fixed gauge (actually, he said all should do this) would be served by making a fixed gauge for each chisel that they use. I'm assuming, and maybe he said, that something drilled to use simple nails or pins would be fine. I haven't done this yet, but I will at some point. I don't think I use more than two mortice chisels on a regular basis.

I'd hate to have to find an allen wrench - especially on a tool that you couldn't stick the wrench to with a simple magnet. Some of the veritas planes require an allen wrench, but they have plenty of space on the castings to stick the wrench to them with a small magnet.

 

[G S Haydon]

I would agree with making a gauge to suit the chisel that we use to mortise. We can then be sure of accuracy, in lieu of this, the Marples style combination gauge is a pretty good option. For those who like an engineering environment or have an engineering type method in their work the allen keys may prove useful. However I appreciate that I can use my lever cap on my cap iron screws or a big screwdriver on my wooden planes.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

However, here's what I don't like.

1) The little screw holding the marking wheel keeps coming loose, leading to a wobbly wheel. Not an aid to accuracy, that.

2) The head has a little O-ring in it to grip the shaft, and stop it falling off. This makes fine adjustment a real faff. You tap the end of the stem on the bench, whereupon the O-ring deforms a bit, and then bounces back. You do the same again, a bit harder, and it jumps 1/16". You turn the gauge round, and tap the other end of the stem - ditto repeato. Etcetera.

Which wheel gauge are you referring to? I have three different Veritas models plus one Tite-Mark (and two of them), and none of them display any of these qualities. It may be the case of getting what you pay for, assuming that you are referring to one of the cheaper knock offs.

Here's another issue. The much celebrated "tite-mark" http://www.glen-drake.com/Adjustable-Mortise-Blade.html and also the fixed width variations. So now I need small allen keys to set my mortise gauge with? And I have to buy a fixed width version? So I better be sure that my chisel and the glen drake are made exactly the same. There's vintage chisels out the window.

I cannot recommend a double wheel (on the same arm) as a mortice gauge. I have tried both the separate and dual wheels, and they just do not leave a deep enough, visible impression. The strength of a wheel gauge is across the grain, and not with the grain. A dual arm gauge, such as the one sold by Veritas works well, but that is when the arms are used separately.

Single wheels OK. Double wheels not-OK.

Warren suggested on another forum that someone who needs a fixed gauge (actually, he said all should do this) would be served by making a fixed gauge for each chisel that they use. I'm assuming, and maybe he said, that something drilled to use simple nails or pins would be fine. I haven't done this yet, but I will at some point. I don't think I use more than two mortice chisels on a regular basis.

There is a lot of sense in having gauges slaved to mortice chisels. Mostly, we only need one or two such gauges (1/4" and 3/16" for furniture). They may be fixed- or variable gauges. This is largely important when there is a difference in thickness in parts when transferring tenon to mortice (such as a tenon in a stretcher meeting an offset mortice in a table leg). For most other markings, with same dimensions (e.g. door frames), the tenon and mortice are marked from the same gauge.

I'd hate to have to find an allen wrench - especially on a tool that you couldn't stick the wrench to with a simple magnet. Some of the veritas planes require an allen wrench, but they have plenty of space on the castings to stick the wrench to them with a small magnet.

The Bailey stye planes use a large slot for the chipbreaker screw, while the Veritas chipbreaker has a small allen screw. I have recommended to LV that they sell the appropriate tool for their planes, rather than supplying a dinky allen wrench/key. This encourages one to simply have the correct adjusting screwdriver on hand. Once this happens, the mindset changes with regards setting unfamiliar screws. This is the one I use with Veritas planes ...

Incidentally, setting up a chipbreaker on a Veritas Custom plane is actually easier than doing so on a Bailey chipbreaker as all the adjustments are on one side (not two sides) of the blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[G S Haydon]

I admire LV's approach to quality and trying something new and also, based on the quality of the product their prices are very fair. However I'd prefer not having another tool to aside from the ones I already own to set a cap iron. In addition a standard cap iron is not difficult to set. Personally, I could not justify the purchase or another plane and another screwdriver on the basis I might find the setting of a cap iron a little easier.

 

[lurker]

Thanks god for all these wonderful innovations we have been seeing over the past 20 years.
If only they had been available in the past, all the woodwork and furniture we can see in churches and stately homes would not be a pile of shoddily made rubbish.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

I too do not get on with my wheel gauge, mostly because the lines are too faint/shallow.
Inspired by yesterdays thread I made a fixed distance mortise gauge last night. It's 8mm which I reckon is my most used size, it's to match the 8mm cutter in my domino which I often use as a mortiser with traditional tenons. I'll try to post a photo when I get time.
Paddy

 

[Jacob]

I would agree with making a gauge to suit the chisel that we use to mortise. We can then be sure of accuracy, ....

The best way to ensure accuracy would be to make it adjustable. Perhaps have it with a screw which you could loosen slightly and then tap the end of the shaft to shift it a smidgin. It would then be usable accuratley with other chisels too. Just like a normal gauge in fact. Surprised nobody has thought of it!
Once set for a particular chisel you could then leave it - glued up or something, but it would be easier to leave it still adjustable.

 

[Glynne]

Interesting thread. I love my Veritas wheel gauge to the extent that I'm thinking of getting another despite the fact that I have traditional both pin and knife gauges in the tool cabinet. Never encountered the problems you mentioned but I do have small hands so that might have an impact.
PS Welcome back Jacob.

 

[bugbear]

I too do not get on with my wheel gauge, mostly because the lines are too faint/shallow.
Inspired by yesterdays thread I made a fixed distance mortise gauge last night. It's 8mm which I reckon is my most used size, it's to match the 8mm cutter in my domino which I often use as a mortiser with traditional tenons. I'll try to post a photo when I get time.
Paddy

If the pins aren't hardened steel, you can get the final adjustment on the spacing done by filing (unless youy got it dead right first time)

BugBear

 

[DoctorWibble]

So far a reader of this thread might now feel the need for three mortice gauges. And two or maybe three marking gauges. So five of six gauges in total. Seems then the primary design criteria should be that the gauges are cheap as well as reliable. So regardless of whether wheel gauges work well they are simply too expensive for the job. Six Veritas would cost nearly £200. Six Titemarks would cost over £500.