The Veritas Shooting Plane

[Jacob]

The advantage of a dedicated shooting plane is very marginal (if anything at all) and it certainly wouldn't show on the finished item.

Hi Jacob

This is one of those statements that is neither correct nor incorrect. Consequently no one challenges it, and it passes into Truth (which it is not).
......

Keep it simple - no one challenges it, because it is true! There is nothing a "shooting" plane will do which can't be done with an ordinary jack plane. In fact many manage without a shooting board at all.
If you were on a hand tool production line and having to shoot edges hour after hour, then a dedicated plane might make sense.

Nothing wrong with treating yourself to a new toy if that's what you want. But there is a big Steam Punk element to it - SP enthusiasts know that their bits of kit are useless and their tech talk is gibberish - that's not the point. With woodwork tool enthusiasts the boundaries aren't so clear cut.

Steam Punk jet pack:

Veritas motor bike:

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Derek, you have the original Stanley Iron in the LN, in the pic above. I hope you didn't use this in your comparison with the LV.....?

I used a total of 4 blades in the LN #51: LN A2 with a 25 degree and a 30 degree bevel, a Smoothcut laminated Japanese blade (which is what you see in the photo, not a Stanley - the Smoothcut was far better than the LN A2), and also a LV PM-V11 blade.

Everything must get its best shot.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[David C]

I doubt that the tool used ever shows on the outside of a finished item?

And shooting planes are advantageous to some users, who do a lot of small endgrain planing.

David

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

They both are better on a flat board than a ramped board since the ramp actually reduces the skew with which they cut. At the same time, however, the ramp does spread the wear on the blade, so the choice is yours.

Derek, what about a reverse ramp with a slight angle to spread the wear? I realise this would mean the trimmed piece would be fighting gravity a bit so I was thinking of keeping the board completely horizontal but then have the shooting slot at an angle. The Veritas would then run downhill, again ever so slightly.

Whatcha think?

Hi Hilton

The reverse ramp is unnecessary with a plane that has a 20 degree downward skewed blade. The direction of the skew acts like (but even more so) as a straight blade on a reverse angle. That is, both pull the work piece down onto the surface.

Because the reverse angle leaves very little height for boards, it is best considered for shooting veneer (sandwiched with MDF or ply).

It's been a bloody hot day, Hilton. The cool of the evening is beginning. Time for a Windhoek.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[cagenuts]

It's been a bloody hot day, Hilton. The cool of the evening is beginning. Time for a Windhoek.

Amen to that!

 

[Peter Sefton]

It's been wet,wet.wet here but todays job is to restock with firewood ready for a possible cold snap.
Peter

 

[Trafalgar]

The advantage of a dedicated shooting plane is very marginal (if anything at all) and it certainly wouldn't show on the finished item.

Hi Jacob

This is one of those statements that is neither correct nor incorrect. Consequently no one challenges it, and it passes into Truth (which it is not).
......

Keep it simple - no one challenges it, because it is true! There is nothing a "shooting" plane will do which can't be done with an ordinary jack plane. In fact many manage without a shooting board at all.
If you were on a hand tool production line and having to shoot edges hour after hour, then a dedicated plane might make sense.

"Nothing wrong with treating yourself to a new toy if that's what you want. But there is a big Steam Punk element to it - SP enthusiasts know that their bits of kit are useless and their tech talk is gibberish - that's not the point. With woodwork tool enthusiasts the boundaries aren't so clear cut."

The fact that these things have found a market, from two separate manufacturers no less, and with sales presumably beyond the break-even point pretty much says it all I guess. Well, it says something doesn't it? Not sure what, but something.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

There appears to long have been a market for shooting planes. How else do we account for the many Slater, Matherson, Spier and Norris mitre planes, the Stanley #51/52, and wooden strike block planes? This does not appear, then, a new phenomenon, one that may be seen to be associated with the amateur and the influence of the Internet. Or can you explain the presence of these planes over the past 150 years?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Peter Sefton]

It's good for students to use a shooting board, but I like them to learn how to control a plane without the use of shooting boards and jigs.
They are in the process of making a table and will be hand fitting and making a dovetailed drawer for it next, the shooting board is great if every thing is square and true but that is not aways the way life is and mastering how to plane end grain needs to be accomplished before you have to make a drawer fit like a glove.
Peter

 

[Jacob]

There appears to long have been a market for shooting planes. How else do we account for the many Slater, Matherson, Spier and Norris mitre planes, the Stanley #51/52, and wooden strike block planes? This does not appear, then, a new phenomenon, one that may be seen to be associated with the amateur and the influence of the Internet. Or can you explain the presence of these planes over the past 150 years?

Regards from Perth

Derek

They could be very marginally useful depending on what you are doing, but aren't essential, which is why they are so uncommon/rare.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stanley-No-51 ... 0837371531
The boards are common of course, but nearly always used with a 5 1/2 or otherwise normal plane.

 

[MMUK]

There appears to long have been a market for shooting planes. How else do we account for the many Slater, Matherson, Spier and Norris mitre planes, the Stanley #51/52, and wooden strike block planes? This does not appear, then, a new phenomenon, one that may be seen to be associated with the amateur and the influence of the Internet. Or can you explain the presence of these planes over the past 150 years?

Regards from Perth

Derek

They could be useful depending on what you are doing, but aren't essential, which is why they are so uncommon/rare.

So you keep saying Jacob. We get the point. Play time is over now :mrgreen:

 

[Jacob]

There appears to long have been a market for shooting planes. How else do we account for the many Slater, Matherson, Spier and Norris mitre planes, the Stanley #51/52, and wooden strike block planes? This does not appear, then, a new phenomenon, one that may be seen to be associated with the amateur and the influence of the Internet. Or can you explain the presence of these planes over the past 150 years?

Regards from Perth

Derek

They could be useful depending on what you are doing, but aren't essential, which is why they are so uncommon/rare.

So you keep saying Jacob. We get the point. Play time is over now :mrgreen:

Just answering Derek's question.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi Jacob

I can add to the list the Stanley #9.

Answer this then: Who purchased these mitre planes? There must have been a market - they were made in plentiful quantities - these are not rare planes.

Now please do not repeat that they were not essential. I said so myself on at least two occasions. The fact is that some did find them useful, and useful enough that they wanted to include them in their tool collection. The question is who are these people?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Paul Chapman]

I can't understand why you are so dismissive of shooting boards and purpose-made planes, Jacob. Shooting boards are so easy to make and a joy to use.



I use the LN #9 with the hot dog handle, which is so much nicer to use for shooting than a standard bench plane



Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Trafalgar]

It's good for students to use a shooting board, but I like them to learn how to control a plane without the use of shooting boards and jigs.
They are in the process of making a table and will be hand fitting and making a dovetailed drawer for it next, the shooting board is great if every thing is square and true but that is not aways the way life is and mastering how to plane end grain needs to be accomplished before you have to make a drawer fit like a glove.
Peter

Good points. Using board and plane subordinates, for the most part, "square" to the accuracy of the board and plane. With a reasonably accurate try square and simple marking knife/utility knife a student can make a square end with the most marginal of handplanes. When a student incises square lines around a workpiece they are quite simply looking at square. The square end is right in front of their eyes in the form of the incised set of lines. The remaining task is simply to saw away the bulk of the waste and then block in where practically any sharp plane will do (depends on the size of the workpiece). Skill in the hand. Does them little if any good to be lent an expertly made shooting board and premium hand plane and shown how to run it over the board with the workpiece end in the way. Ditto short miters as well. Easy if not fun to do with knife, combo square, and block plane. Bevel gauge too if something other than a 45* miter is wanted.

Even the most basic kit includes a knife, a square, and one or two hand planes. That's all that is really needed.

 

[Trafalgar]

There appears to long have been a market for shooting planes. How else do we account for the many Slater, Matherson, Spier and Norris mitre planes, the Stanley #51/52, and wooden strike block planes? This does not appear, then, a new phenomenon, one that may be seen to be associated with the amateur and the influence of the Internet. Or can you explain the presence of these planes over the past 150 years?

Regards from Perth

Derek

The prices of the planes you mention, in the vintage plane market, suggests that they were far from ubiquitous. It would be my guess they were made in limited numbers and fetched high prices in their day, much like their contemporaries from Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley. They had limited appeal for lots of reasons the most obvious one being their lack of necessity. Nice to have, sure. Necessary, far from it.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

There appears to long have been a market for shooting planes. How else do we account for the many Slater, Matherson, Spier and Norris mitre planes, the Stanley #51/52, and wooden strike block planes? This does not appear, then, a new phenomenon, one that may be seen to be associated with the amateur and the influence of the Internet. Or can you explain the presence of these planes over the past 150 years?

Regards from Perth

Derek

The price of the planes you mention, in the vintage plane market, suggests they were far from ubiquitous.

I suppose it depends on how you define 'ubiquitous'.

Norris, Spiers, Mathieson et. al. smoothing planes are not rare, but even in beaten-up condition they often seem to fetch far more than a decent vintage Stanley or Record. Mitre planes do seem to crop up quite a lot, and whilst they may not originally have been intended solely for use on a shooting board, they do work well with them.

It's worth bearing in mind that most carpentry and joinery doesn't need much end-grain shooting, but cabinetmaking and some of the specialist trades such as patternmaking do. Since in the hayday of hand woodworking (pre WW2, roughly speaking) the majority of paid wood tradesmen were working in carpentry and joinery, it follows that a minority of tradesmen needed the specialist shooting planes. Hence there are far more Bailey planes about than infill mitre planes. That doesn't really mean that infills are rare - look on any Ebay auction, and you'll probably find at least one, sometimes several.

 

[Jacob]

Hi Jacob

I can add to the list the Stanley #9.

Answer this then: Who purchased these mitre planes? There must have been a market - they were made in plentiful quantities - these are not rare planes.

Hens teeth!

.... The fact is that some did find them useful, and useful enough that they wanted to include them in their tool collection. The question is who are these people?....

A very small number of specialist cabinet makers - piano makers have been suggested.

 

[MMUK]

Oh for **** sake Jacob, give it up will you!

 

[Jacob]

Oh for pineapple sake Jacob, give it up will you!

Why?
I'm interested in these things and want to know how useful they are. I'm also interested in how much can be done with only a few simple tools. It was an eye opener for me when I was taught how much can be done with a fairly basic tool collection.