The unedited John Brown

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marcus":21ey74ch said:
It was more or less Morris's vision I think, but I'm not holding my breath for it....

I'm very unconvinced about Morris. I prefer a philosophy that encourages people to live in homes full of things they've made themselves (which may or may not be beautiful, and may or may not be very useful), but are of their own hands.

Many things sold by Ikea are relatively good looking and relatively useful and certainly inexpensive, and in a way fulfill Morris's vision, but they've put lots of craftspeople out of business and made it cheaper to buy furniture than make your own.
 
Nick Gibbs":odpe4ui0 said:
...
Many things sold by Ikea are relatively good looking and relatively useful and certainly inexpensive, and in a way fulfill Morris's vision, but they've put lots of craftspeople out of business and made it cheaper to buy furniture than make your own.
Not sure I agree. Ikea sell good design at very low prices, with a hidden cost of high depreciation due to rapid obsolescence .
I think they are doing us a favour in some ways - people taking more interest in design who are also very aware of the quality issue, which in turn makes them appreciate trad quality. That's certainly the feeling I have got from my forays into furniture making. The mdf fitted kitchen industry has the same effect. It was definitely the case when I was doing period joinery - people knowingly pay premium prices to avoid having to buy plastic or tatty modern timber joinery.
I think it's a good time to be doing quality stuff - but not to expect Lord n Lady Snooty to turn up in a roller - your clients most likely will be ordinary people making careful decisions.
If you hang about hoping for rich clients you could end up having to run courses, or selling DVDs about sharpening and similar b.....x. :lol:

PS IKEA customers may not know at first that it's mostly junk, but they will after a few purchases. A very useful learning curve!
 
John Brown may be gone but certainly not forgotten and I think he would have loved this debate as agent provocateur agree with him or not he started a conversation that has been going on for years
 
Nick Gibbs":i35jq884 said:
I prefer a philosophy that encourages people to live in homes full of things they've made themselves (which may or may not be beautiful, and may or may not be very useful), but are of their own hands.

That's rather fanciful, Nick. Many people today would struggle to make egg on toast, let alone a dining room suite :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul
 
phil.p":1oligzsb said:
No, it was a statement of fact, not theory. The whys and wherefores are irrelevant to the truth of the statement.
I appologise, I should have been more clear - I was referring to the first part of the statement, not the second.
Great works of music, architecture, art, etc did not appear out of the ether, or because of the benevolence of highly skilled people - they only exist because someone paid for them. That is a fact not a political statement or argument. The whys and wherefores may be.
 
Nick Gibbs":k8mlihcg said:
Cheshirechappie":k8mlihcg said:
Not entirely sure that I agree with your analogy with TV cooking, which I think is more about entertainment than about promoting real food (Saint Delia excepted). Most TV culinary shows are just food porn, really. I'm not sure that what John Brown was promoting was wood porn.

I didn't really mean that. I meant that some home woodworkers might feel inadequate comparing their pieces to work produced by patron-funded professionals. I just like the idea of people making tables and chairs because they need tables and chairs and enjoy the process of making, whatever the results are like, and don't feel intimidated. I compared it to cooking only because I remember some research that says the plethora of cooking programmes has put people off cooking at home because they feel intimidated. I'm not sure if it's true. And I wonder if that's true of woodwork, and may explain why making jigs & devices & benches can be more popular than making furniture, because no one sees your jigs and you don't have to be frightened of exposing your creativity.

One thing I think every amateur woodworker with a few years of practice will be familiar with is the casual request from family members and friends anong the lines of, "Ooo, that's nice! My sister is getting married next week. Could you knock up a coffee table for me as a wedding present?"

You are usually met with baffled incomprehension when you say it'll take a couple of months, not a week, and it'll cost them a hundred pounds or so for materials. "But I can get one from IKEA off the shelf for half that."

At this point, you have to decide whether to try explaining the differences between hand-making in your spare time and mass production, or just sighing and changing the subject.

It's a world of instant everything. Instant news. Instant food. Instant entertainment. There was a post on this forum a few days ago criticising a major woodworking retailer because an mail order placed with standard postal delivery didn't arrive the next morning. Against that background, and bearing in mind that most people grow up and go through their education without having the chance to make something, how on earth do you explain the patience and complexity of a craft, much less get people to actually take it up themselves, even on a basic scale? Given that most of us amateurs work wood as a relaxation, it becomes easier to just retreat to your shed and potter about. No stress, no deadlines. Just fun.

So, we read John Brown's articles and say, "Yep. Spot on. Good on him for doing his own thing. Now, I think I'll just potter off and make some nice handles for my bootfair chisels, or see if I can get a better edge on my smoothing plane iron, or maybe make another toolbox....."
 
phil.p":30240v8x said:
.....
Great works of music, architecture, art, etc did not appear out of the ether, or because of the benevolence of highly skilled people - they only exist because someone paid for them......
Except for the ones which weren't paid for. Van Gogh sold one painting in his lifetime. The "creative urge" drives a lot of people, with getting paid a long way down the line. People on this forum for starters? Others do a lot for it's own sake, or for the community. Some spectacular efforts (cathedrals etc) were community projects with unpaid work. Choirs, orchestras abound with very little or no pay.
The idea that we should be grateful to rich people for our culture is really very silly.
 
marcus":2g7t920b said:
For me the ideal (and therefore probably fantasy) answer to this would be a world where everyone appreciates good craftsmanship, whatever their taste, and can see the value in trying to make the world a more beautiful place for everyone to enjoy. And where they can all afford to have a sensibly sized house that is homely, with one or two really high quality things in it for them to enjoy if they want them. In theory this doesn't seem too much to ask; it was more or less Morris's vision I think, but I'm not holding my breath for it....

Very well put.
 
Jacob":15ku9vkq said:
phil.p":15ku9vkq said:
.....
Great works of music, architecture, art, etc did not appear out of the ether, or because of the benevolence of highly skilled people - they only exist because someone paid for them......
Except for the ones which weren't paid for. Van Gogh sold one painting in his lifetime. The "creative urge" drives a lot of people, with getting paid a long way down the line. People on this forum for starters? Others do a lot for it's own sake, or for the community. Some spectacular efforts (cathedrals etc) were community projects with unpaid work. Choirs, orchestras abound with very little or no pay.
The idea that we should be grateful to rich people for our culture is really very silly.

Another good point and I agree with most of this and was thinking along similar lines. I might moderate the last statement by saying that whilst there are rich people, whether that is or is not a good thing, we should appreciate if they use their wealth to the benefit of the community. As long as it is honestly and generously given and not just some display of their superiority. Some are rich because they are parasites, some just happen to be born or end up that way.
 
Cheshirechappie":3fm5uboe said:
……..
At this point, you have to decide whether to try explaining the differences between hand-making in your spare time and mass production, or just sighing and changing the subject. ……...
Or if you seriously want to get into the business - have a look around for the best indication of the market price of similar things and charge them that. If it's a good idea, something you'd like to make, then make 5 or 10 of them at the same time and sell them for whatever you can get. You've got to crawl before you can walk!
 
Jacob":307nirgv said:
Cheshirechappie":307nirgv said:
……..
At this point, you have to decide whether to try explaining the differences between hand-making in your spare time and mass production, or just sighing and changing the subject. ……...
Or if you seriously want to get into the business - have a look around for the best indication of the market price of similar things and charge them that. If it's a good idea, something you'd like to make, then make 5 or 10 of them at the same time and sell them for whatever you can get. You've got to crawl before you can walk!

Oh FFS. Read the whole post before you reply, Jacob. I was talking about the amateur woodworker, not the aspiring professional.
 
Cheshirechappie":2yo6nbjn said:
Jacob":2yo6nbjn said:
Cheshirechappie":2yo6nbjn said:
……..
At this point, you have to decide whether to try explaining the differences between hand-making in your spare time and mass production, or just sighing and changing the subject. ……...
Or if you seriously want to get into the business - have a look around for the best indication of the market price of similar things and charge them that. If it's a good idea, something you'd like to make, then make 5 or 10 of them at the same time and sell them for whatever you can get. You've got to crawl before you can walk!

Oh FFS. Read the whole post before you reply, Jacob. I was talking about the amateur woodworker, not the aspiring professional.
Hence the "Or if.."
 
I doubt Michelangelo painted the Cistine Chapel in the lunch breaks from his day job. I doubt that orchestras would exist without concert halls - which someone else paid for (they also used music which the composer more often than not had been paid to write), and while local peasants might have given their labour free on major projects for decades (which I doubt), I doubt they paid for the stone.
Even today's community projects often depend on benefactors somewhere along the line - my nephew has been volunteering at a conservation trust for a couple of months, and he boasts about what a wonderful job they do for the community, free. It doesn't dawn on him that the only reason he can do it is that I'm feeding and housing him gratis.
There isn't a material cost involved in opening your mouth and singing, but there is in virtually everything else that's "free". It all gets paid for somewhere. Whether "we should be grateful to rich people for our culture" or not is a different discussion.
 
richarnold":346c9j18 said:
I personally don't feel the prices are aimed at just the elitist few.

Very nice work but he'll never be rich at those prices if he's only producing two or three chairs a week. Just about making enough to get by, I should think.

Cheers :wink:

Paul
 
phil.p":2loyksos said:
I doubt Michelangelo painted the Cistine Chapel in the lunch breaks from his day job. I doubt that orchestras would exist without concert halls - which someone else paid for (they also used music which the composer more often than not had been paid to write), and while local peasants might have given their labour free on major projects for decades (which I doubt), I doubt they paid for the stone.
Even today's community projects often depend on benefactors somewhere along the line - my nephew has been volunteering at a conservation trust for a couple of months, and he boasts about what a wonderful job they do for the community, free. It doesn't dawn on him that the only reason he can do it is that I'm feeding and housing him gratis.
There isn't a material cost involved in opening your mouth and singing, but there is in virtually everything else that's "free". It all gets paid for somewhere. Whether "we should be grateful to rich people for our culture" or not is a different discussion.

Michaelangelo schmangelo, why on earth is that overrated old darling always qouted high on the cognosceinti top 10 lists as the epitome of culture?? Its the same old chestnut, the dogmatic assumption that european culture (art, theatre, opera, whatever) is a simply marvellous pheomenon and is the benchmark of high brow quality, regardless of how it was created in practical terms, and what it cost.
Your right, the peasants never paid for any stone, why? because they were uncouth philistines? No, simply because they were historically stripped of any claim to ownership of those sort of resources, and couldnt donate any even if they had wanted to-just in case you forgot. After events such as the enclosure acts, what little the peasant labouring class had access to was curtailed still further. It was Lord and Lady Addlesh#te and all the rest of the aristocrat leeches who "owned everything" servants, tradesmen, labourers, clergy, even the fish and animals, and woe betide any one foolish enough to challenge that cynically titled "natural order of things".... Agreed Phil, someone did pay for all those wonderful, enlightening, culturally enriching articles.

Any way, to get back to the original subject, the ironic thing is that despite Mr Browns rantings about the failings of power tools, and the virtues of hand tools, the fact remains that he accomplished the most trickiest part of the chair build (making the bent arms) using a power tool (large bandsaw) to prepare the arm stock, which as far as I know, no other chairmaker does.
LOL Maybe Mr Brown was merely doing a bit of Malcolm Mclaren type publicity stunting with his writings, stir up and generate controversy to get known... :wink:
 
Jacob":1bwt6mcf said:
If it's a good idea, something you'd like to make, then make 5 or 10 of them at the same time and sell them for whatever you can get.

I like that approach. Repeat making is under-estimated in my opinion. It's during repetitive work that I always seem to learn the most, and have come to really enjoy it.
 
Nick Gibbs":22mh2hv6 said:
Jacob":22mh2hv6 said:
If it's a good idea, something you'd like to make, then make 5 or 10 of them at the same time and sell them for whatever you can get.

I like that approach. Repeat making is under-estimated in my opinion. It's during repetitive work that I always seem to learn the most, and have come to really enjoy it.
It's how most stuff is made. I don't know why woodworkers have got hung up on the "one off" idea. Potters fill a kiln, weavers keep going yard after yard, printmakers do runs, bakers fill an oven. Even totally hand-made stuff is made in batches. Turners would do it in dozens. As a rule it's probably not worth getting the kit out to do just one.
Christmas is coming - imagine making one mince pie at a time!
 
I'm quite grateful to the Borgias for patronising Michelangelo. a whole sequence of unique works of Art, of the highest quality.

BugBear
 
Paul Chapman":1liowhb2 said:
richarnold":1liowhb2 said:
I personally don't feel the prices are aimed at just the elitist few.

Very nice work but he'll never be rich at those prices if he's only producing two or three chairs a week. Just about making enough to get by, I should think.

Cheers :wink:

Paul
I suspect a lot of parts are common to two or (many) more designs, in which case he probably makes 100 legs, 100 right hand arms, 100 back slats and so on, which speeds production. #-o I've just agreed with Jacob, and I've come over all faint.
Nice chairs, though, and certainly not a get rich quick scheme.
 
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