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Comparing a hand cranked grinder to rubbing on a flat stone is surely like comparing using an egg beater type hand drill to boring a hole with an awl or hand held bit. Some gearing can help match the needs of the job to human capabilites.
 
Random Orbital Bob":2o7sz6z0 said:
You're missing the power of leverage and momentum Jacob. It isn't the same effort, by using a crank handle to power the wheel, you are doing less "work" than by providing the effort purely manually. I'm sure some physicist can tell you what the formula is.
I think you must be doing the same amount of work plus or minus whatever is due to efficiency and/or wasted energy. Flat stone with both hands on the blade must be similar to one on the blade and one on the crank handle.
Hence the fact that hand cranked wheels aren't common - they aren't actually much use.
A bit like egg whisks - they look like a good idea but in fact they don't do anything you can't do with a fork?
 
having tried both yesterday, I can confirm the hand grinder is a *lot* easier. Don't ask me why - I suppose it must have something to with the fact that it requires only a small effort to keep the wheel spinning quickly (and the motion is much quicker than the equivalent of moving your arms back and forward on a stone, thus more abrading gets done in any one period of time).

I confess to using a fork for egg whisking though, despite owning two egg whisks.
 
Jacob":3kmup8xn said:
Random Orbital Bob":3kmup8xn said:
A bit like egg whisks - they look like a good idea but in fact they don't do anything you can't do with a fork?

Or can they?

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Jacob":11n5ijkk said:
bugbear":11n5ijkk said:
Jacob":11n5ijkk said:
Is there much point in a hand powered wheel? - unless someone else is turning the handle, or it's foot operated with treadles, flywheels, pedals etc. Simpler to put the energy direct into wanging the blade up and down a flat stone IMHO.
Yes, well worth it - the hand powered grinders with a coarse stone cut very fast, so fast that cooling is a bit of an issue (although not as much as with 'leccy)

I use mine on particularly knackered blades. When doing coarse work, the theoretical lack of precision from only having one "control" hand is not a practical problem.

BugBear
Yebbut what does it do which you can't do with a flat stone with the same amount of effort?
It removes metal faster for the same amount of effort. That why I use it. I happen to own and use a 3" x 20" piece of 60 grit AlZi cloth backed abrasive fixed on glass, which I also use, so I'm in a very good position to comment on the relative speeds.

BugBear
 
But physics says it can't remove metal faster for the same input of effort, all other things being equal.
So what are the other things?
 
No, physics doesn't say that. It says that the same input of work results in the same work done on the environment. This includes the metal you are removing, the acceleration of the chisel in your hand, the heat generated by the tool and by you, etc. If you direct the work in a more efficient way you get a faster result on the thing it is directed at, in this case metal removal.

Two simple examples. If you are correct, why does a fine stone remove material slower than a coarse stone? You are putting similar effort in. And if I put the same effort into cycling as you put into walking, I will go a lot further and faster.
 
MusicMan":14qm7dao said:
No, physics doesn't say that. It says that the same input of work results in the same work done on the environment. This includes the metal you are removing, the acceleration of the chisel in your hand, the heat generated by the tool and by you, etc. If you direct the work in a more efficient way you get a faster result on the thing it is directed at, in this case metal removal.

Two simple examples. If you are correct, why does a fine stone remove material slower than a coarse stone? You are putting similar effort in. And if I put the same effort into cycling as you put into walking, I will go a lot further and faster.
I did say "all other things being equal".
What is it which would make the difference in this case?
 
Jacob":1tw8s89h said:
But physics says it can't remove metal faster for the same input of effort, all other things being equal.
So what are the other things?
Dunno. But it is faster. So I guess other things aren't equal.

But (speculating) the obvious factor is speed, like the egg beater example cited earlier. Cutting speed is a thing - engineers working metal have whole tables of "feeds and speeds" for lathes and drills.

BugBear
 
It's the leverage afforded by the handle coupled with the inertia and momentum of the wheel. Both of those give the user a mechanical advantage which the hand pusher doesn't have. That's the physics bit I think.
 
Following on (really dredging deep into O level physics here). I think whats going on is you need to work harder to overcome the initial inertia of the wheel but once you have, it's momentum means you work less.
 
When using a honing stone or moving a chisel back and forth along a piece of sandpaper, not only do you have to move the chisel, you also have to move your arms back and forth. You usually have to accelerate your arms, hands and the chisel, then decelerate it and accelerate in the reverse direction, then decelerate to the start point, and so on. You have to provide the energy to move both chisel and arms. Arms are heavy, and need a finite amount of energy to move them. Putting it another way, the whole moving 'system' consists of chisel, hands and arms.

With the hand-crank grinder, only one arm needs to move. There's a further efficiency gain because the arm and chisel does not need to be constantly accelerated and decelerated; once the system (arm, hand, crank handle, gears, stone) has reached it's working speed, only sufficient energy needs to be input to maintain wheel speed. (An analogy would be the greater efficiency of a gas turbine over a reciprocating engine - you're not using energy to constantly slow, stop, start, accelerate the other way, then decelerate and stop, start again ..... and so on.)

Thus, the hand-crank grinder is more efficient than the back-and-forth rub stone. This is very noticable in practice, as Nabs and Bugbear commented.
 
One thing you can do with a flat stone is apply a lot of pressure, which you can't do one handed with a wheel.
I do use a flat stone for grinding very occasionally and max speed and pressure does speed it up, but I'd rather use my Pro-edge!
 
Jacob":1dotg42g said:
One thing you can do with a flat stone is apply a lot of pressure, which you can't do one handed with a wheel.
True, but the hand cranked wheel is still faster than a simple grinding surface. As stated, I have and use both.

BugBear
 
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