The qestion of the saw nib

[Jacob]

Here's an actual example of an extant early (late 17th, early 18th c) saw nib.

Suggestion as to purpose invited. One might note that it's not Jacob's "4" from the end"... (which he's never seen, so now he's learnt something)

It's self-evidently not a beginners-end-of-saw-indicator. :roll:

BugBear (posting actual, dated, evidence)

Actually if you were sawing at 45º then that nib would give you a little cue that you were (very) near the end of the cut.

 

[Jacob]

...
Thus, on the basis of the AVAILABLE evidence, we have to go with 'decoration' - until someone presents better evidence...

The AVAILABLE evidence is that it works as an end-of-cut cue.
Fascinating how sticky this "nobody knows" story is! I wonder if it will ever go away.

 

[woodbrains]

It's simple archaeology - if you find a worked-up pointy bone with a hole at one end like a needle, it's reasonable to assume that it was intended as a needle.
Similarly with hollow bone with holes like a flute; it probably was a flute-like object. :shock:
Could be wrong in both cases but until better evidence comes along we'll never know.

Hello,

Ahh, but we have a compartor for the pointy bone with a hole, and analogues to hollow bones with serial holes in them. Archaeologists are not guessing wildly as to the function of the things they dig up. Saw nib depth gauge has no comparison and is a wild guess. It is a fair guess, to be sure, but find a justification rather than theorising.

Does it seem likely that the idea of the depth gauge nib has been forgotten in just a couple of hundred years? Disston must have been making saws when that knowledge would have been common, surely, but stated it was only decoration.

Mike.

 

[Trafalgar]

Here's an actual example of an extant early (late 17th, early 18th c) saw nib.

Suggestion as to purpose invited. One might note that it's not Jacob's "4" from the end"... (which he's never seen, so now he's learnt something)

It's self-evidently not a beginners-end-of-saw-indicator. :roll:

BugBear (posting actual, dated, evidence)

With a saw that profoundly breasted the nib could very well function as an end of saw marker. A saw with that much breast is harder to kink, allowing one to use a stroke that goes much closer to the toe. Flooring saws are even more breasted and this geometry allows the toes of these saws to get into the action.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

To be fair, by the hang of the saw, it looks like it would be used near to 45deg and the nib would appear just before the blade exited the work. However, I still think it's function would have been known about and not just forgotten when Disston and other makers were including them. Aesthetically, the nib on this ancient saw would be a visual 'terminator', and balance the design better than leaving it off.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

..... Saw nib depth gauge has no comparison and is a wild guess. ....

Not a wild guess it's a rational inference: it has a use; that is what it's for.
What we are looking at here is not the (obvious) purpose of the nib, but that it has been been written that "nobody knows what it's for" and the way otherwise intelligent people can't shake off this little snippet of misinformation.

 

[bugbear]

So; to summarise and condense Jacob's statements;

• 
  1 a mark near the end of the saw is a useful guide that allows beginners to limit their upstroke
  2 this is a common practise
  3 the mark should be about 4" from the end
  4 the nib is a long standing physical manifestation of this practice
  5 Jacob has never seen a nib in any other position than 4" from the end, in line with the practice

• 
  1 it's not an absurd idea
  2 but no one else appears to have heard of it
  3 if you say so; (but see photo)
  4 17th-19th century manufacturers did not add features to help beginners - "practise, practise" was what helped apprentices
  5 many counter examples can be found; I guess since Jacob was trained in the 1980's and isn't a tool collector, he hasn't seen many saws with nibs at all.

I use mainly 1950's handsaws (Tyzack, Disston, S&J). I have only two older saws with nibs.

Look, matey, I know a dead theory when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

.
Look, matey, I know a dead theory when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

BugBear

It's not a theory it's a simple inference;
1 the nib (sited somewhere near the end not necessarily 4") has a use.
2 This is what it is for.

The only dead theory is that it has no use. A use has been found! Quite a reasonable and sensible use too - admittedly not essential or universal - but it does have a use.

Can you prove that it has no use?

 

[PAC1]

When I was an apprentice it was explained to me thus: In the days when rip saws were used, you needed nice big teeth once you got into the rhythm. The problem was starting a cut with such a rip saw was difficult (if, as it does the saw jumps you do a lot of damage to your thumb), so to make starting easier the teeth at the toe end were ground smaller. (same logic as progressive on some high end very new saws) To start a cut the smaller teeth were used pulling back and forth on the smaller teeth. Once the cut started you need to engage the bigger teeth and get the rhythm going. On some old rip saws the nib roughly correlates with the smaller teeth. If that is correct it was a marker to show where the small teeth start.
It can be seen in Ellis on pages 8 and 9 (and Riley at p111). However on page 47 of Ellis the method of starting a rip cut makes no reference to the smaller teeth clearly shown and referenced on page 8/9!

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

For some reason I can't find it, but there was a link the other day to Richard Maguire and Shane Skellton using a saw at Richard Arnold's charity do. IIRC they said that the nib was to help the user know when to change stroke just as Jacob is saying. Personally I'm no expert but if I knew half of what Richard and Shane know about saws and sawing I would definitely consider myself an expert.

 

[Trafalgar]

From the OldTools Archive:

http://www.swingleydev.com/ot/get/181212/thread/

"My name is Tom Opfell. I have had an interest in and collected handsaws for
about 20 years now and own over 1000.
I believe that the actual purpose of the saw nib was, as Sandy Moss [a well-known antique tool seller in the US]
correctly stated, was to warn the operator that the end of the blade was
near to prevent the saw from freeing itself from the kerf and perhaps
injuring the hand holding the board. In his book "The Carpenter's Tool
Chest" published in 1933, Thomas Hibben's states "the little nipple on the
top of our saws has survived from the days when saws were pulled. Such a
mark would serve to catch the carpenter's eye as he pulled back on the saw
so that he stopped his pull before the blade came out of the cut."

Jacob Butler did not dream any of this up. Nor did I, I've seen this mentioned elsewhere, in print, and when I next run across it I'll post it.

The 'decorative' explanation is laughable, regardless of the notoriety of the source. I've had skin tags removed that were more attractive.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob Butler did not dream any of this up.

Phew I'm so relieved! :lol:
I can't even claim to have discovered it for myself - I was told the felt tip marking trick.
But I had forgotten all about it until my experience (see above) with two newly acquired old saws - nibs at 3" and 2 1/2"

The 'decorative' explanation is laughable, regardless of the notoriety of the source. I've had skin tags removed that were more attractive.

:lol:

 

[Trafalgar]

The fact of the matter is that even experienced users can kink a saw, and the worst kind are obviously when the saw is withdrawn too far and kinks on the next push stroke. This can easily result in a kink that cannot be completely repaired.

Those who have a favorite, old, and essentially irreplaceable saw that has no nib would be well-advised to put a dot of paint or marker about where the nib would otherwise have been -three inches or so in from the toe. A lot of people fearing a kink don't use enough of the saw and prematurely wear the middle ten to twelve inches of the saw and this represents a loss of efficiency and plain bad technique. So in this instance a mark is helpful as well.

I'm now going to 'Brexit' this thread. Hope all of y'all have a good weekend!

 

[MIGNAL]

Ancient saw stop, antique rifle sight. I go along with the notion that it had a practical use. I don't think it started out as being just a decorative feature. It's a pretty poor one if that was the case. I think that even I could come up with something more decorative and attractive in a matter of a few minutes.

 

[bugbear]

A use has been found! Quite a reasonable and sensible use too - admittedly not essential or universal - but it does have a use.

Oh, that's fine. If you find it useful to use it thus, do (please) do so.

But I don't think that's what it's for, any more than a hammer is for a doorstop, or a paperweight,

But it makes a very good one.

(at the moment, as it happens, I'm regularly using a 7lb hammer head for arm curl exercises)

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

A use has been found! Quite a reasonable and sensible use too - admittedly not essential or universal - but it does have a use.

Oh, that's fine. If you find it useful to use it thus, do (please) do so.

But I don't think that's what it's for, ........

Can you prove or otherwise demonstrate that it is not what it is for?

 

[AndyT]

Sorry to be a bit late to this fascinating discussion. Here's my attempt to add to the thinking so far.

The answer to the question 'why is there sometimes a nib on a saw' could be most satisfactorily answered if we could go back in time and ask the first sawmaker who added a nib why he had done so, or if we could find a written statement by him explaining his idea. We can't do that of course.

Nibs on saws, both plain and fancy, go back quite a long way.

These pictures are from "The Story of the Saw" published by Spear and Jackson and show 18th century Swedish and Dutch saws. Note that the second picture shows a plain nib and a more elaborate feature.

This picture is of a similar seventeenth century saw as Skokokstlers Castle in Sweden

(From the excellent Hovelbenk blog at https://hyvelbenk.wordpress.com/2014/03/21/verktoy-pa-skokloster-slott/ .)

So we can see very early examples of some extra bit of work being done towards the toe of a saw, from about as far back as we can go in the history of western-style push-cutting saws.

Turning to the purpose, I'd heard the suggestion mentioned by Matt on page 1 that the nib was for starting a cut, and had always dismissed it as nonsense, so it was interesting to see a video of a carpenter making use of it in what looked like quick, efficient work.

Looking at the saws that I own, I only have one with a nib, and it's on a rip saw with very big teeth, so although it's possible that my saw's teeth have been recut, I can't see a need for a kerf-starting nib on a rip saw. There are some good early examples of rip saws with nibs of course - the Kenyon saws in the Seaton Chest.

In the book about the chest, the chapter on saws was written by the late Ken Hawley and updated by Simon Barley - two men with more knowledge of saws than anyone else. Ken expressed his view that the nib was a decorative feature to balance the decorative handle, not a functional one. He provided examples of other common tools which almost always have a little touch of decoration on them just to finish them off properly, such as dividers with file work and engraved circles.

Paddy Roxburgh remembered my post about Shane Skelton talking to Richard Maguire about the nib on his copy of one of the Kenyon saws in the Seaton Chest, at Richard Arnold's charity do. (This was in our long discussion about saw tensioning, not in the chat about the event.)

Now, Shane knows a thing or two about saws, and he did indeed express his conviction that a nib like the one on his saw is useful for seeing when to stop pulling back on a saw. He said it was especially valuable in a pre-industrial hand tool workshop when the craftsman would be swapping from one saw to another. Jimi captured the good-humoured discussion on video and you can see it here on his YouTube channel. (The whole video is worth watching, but this link should take you to the nib discussion: https://youtu.be/8NImt7g5iOQ?t=8m36s )

So, my contribution to the collective wisdom is to suggest that some saws have impractical decoration near or at the end and other saws have a minimally decorative feature which sometimes can be put to practical use. I hope we can all agree on that.

 

[Dovetaildave]

Two very more modern assertions so far not mentioned are;

The woodwrights shop S2 ep7 - saws (1982) . Roy mentions two possibles as I recall;
1, A Cut starter.
2, Attachment point (for twine ?) for a teeth protector.


Chris Swartz mentions it possibly in his blog April 7, 2013
1, Using it to score an edge to prevent splintering,
2, Attachment point (for twine ?) for a tooth Keeper.
3, Use the nib as a makeshift compass.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodw ... a-saws-nib

Number 3 Does pose a possible question: Who would use a handsaw use to cut curves, ignoring a Frame saw or Turning saw? Or is it part of a wider geometrical kit to be used possibly"on site"?


Swartz's blog also mentions further down the article;
"As a place to tie on your saw’s “keeper.” When I travel with handsaws that aren’t in a tool chest I protect their teeth with some sort of wooden guard. Some of these keepers clip on. Some of them fit with friction. The best way I have found to secure a keeper is to tie it to the saw.

One string goes through the keeper and through the saw’s tote. The other string goes through the keeper and behind the nib. If the saw doesn’t have a nib, the string tends to slip off easily."

I use a length of split PVC pipe :lol:

Regards,
Dave