The qestion of the saw nib

[sunnybob]

Oh man, I just LOVE this forum!

And to think I thought you were all a bunch of nerds when I first joined.

 

[Droogs]

Oh man, I just LOVE this forum!

And to think I thought you were all a bunch of nerds when I first joined.

OMG! :shock: How can we be nerds, most of us dont even know how to work a colour telly, let alone a computer! :lol:

 

[ED65]

It's common practice to put a felt tip mark on a hand saw in a classroom of novices.

Anyone (other than Jacob) heard of this?

Nope, and I have never read the tip mentioned in a book. To put that into perspective I have a larger library than is healthy, having passed 100 books a long while back.

As you would expect BB, a careful Google search on this is also informative.

 

[ED65]

...
Not every nib is a convenient 4" from the end of the blade....

4 ish will do.

Classic! Pick one of the two points raised where there's a (superficially) reasonable argument against it and completely ignore the second which can't as easily be dismissed.

Yes, anything roughly around the 4" mark would work for the supposed purpose. But even the most rudimentary bit of research will bring examples to your screen showing the nib can't possibly be for that. It's at the tip in not a few older saws, not near the tip, right at the leading corner. And as if that's not good enough how about a saw where it's on the underside for crying out loud.

These facts cannot be swept under the rug and ignored, and they trump any belief that it's a reference point for stroke length.

As we can see from a later post this was a personal revelation of yours (which you should have said initially) and as such it will be dearly held, as all such things are. But we have all cherished beliefs that subsequently turn out to be wrong; doesn't matter how cherished, doesn't matter how long it's been in the noggin, when facts emerge that poke holes in an idea you accept it was wrong and move on with life, wiser and better informed.

Or, you act like an ostrich and bury your head in the sand.

Which is it to be?

 

[deema]

As mentioned the nib has been in saws for a very long time, and when they first started the cost of steel proportionally would be a lot higher than it is today. The nib uses up steel plate and by consequence makes the saw more expensive. A simple notch in the blade would have performed the role of guide and or saw tooth protector string retainer, so that points to the nib being of value.

Jacob has a point, and some form of marker is useful on a blade of where the end is, especially at the end of the day! However, I don't think it's the main reason for it being there.

This is my own theory, and may be complete garbage. Peoples eye sight was not as good when the nib started with glasses being both expensive and accurate prescriptions unheard of. Lighting was often also very poor. When I'm working and get tired, I find sighting down a long saw difficult, I loose perspective at looking at a thin straight edge (to cut straight you must sight down the saw and not to one side or the other, those who have difficult cutting at 90 degrees, try it) the nib helps me to see the blade, and by breaking up the back / acting as a 'gun' sight helps me start of a cut square and vertical, and keep the saw vertical throughout the cut.

 

[Jacob]

...
Not every nib is a convenient 4" from the end of the blade....

4 ish will do.

Classic! Pick one of the two points raised where there's a (superficially) reasonable argument against it and completely ignore the second which can't as easily be dismissed.

Yes, anything roughly around the 4" mark would work for the supposed purpose. But even the most rudimentary bit of research will bring examples to your screen showing the nib can't possibly be for that. It's at the tip in not a few older saws, not near the tip, right at the leading corner. And as if that's not good enough how about a saw where it's on the underside for crying out loud.

These facts cannot be swept under the rug and ignored, and they trump any belief that it's a reference point for stroke length.

As we can see from a later post this was a personal revelation of yours (which you should have said initially) and as such it will be dearly held, as all such things are. But we have all cherished beliefs that subsequently turn out to be wrong; doesn't matter how cherished, doesn't matter how long it's been in the noggin, when facts emerge that poke holes in an idea you accept it was wrong and move on with life, wiser and better informed.

Or, you act like an ostrich and bury your head in the sand.

Which is it to be?

The very common nibs which are around 4" from the toe are the ones which are useful as a guide.
The only "cherished belief" is that nobody knows what use they have.

I've no idea about nibs in other positions - can't say I've seen them either. Its possible that they were added by someone who also had no idea what they were for and thought they could go anywhere.

 

[ED65]

 

[Trafalgar]

I think nibs were on saws when Mr. Disston was still in diapers weren't they? How would he have really known their purpose, otherwise? This could be my misunderstanding, but I don't think Disston introduced nibs on saws.

I've no way to prove this, but there were nibs on saws imported into America from Sheffield when Henry Disston started making saws, so it's possible he incorporated them because that's what his customers expected to see.

Did not Disston employ Sheffield emigrants when he first started making his own steel? Could they have been the source of his statement that the nib was decorative only?

Simon Barley states in 'British Saws and Saw Makers' (page 11) that both Disston and Spear and Jackson stated clearly in their handbooks at various times that the nib was decorative only.

I suppose if people have subsequently found uses for it, that's a bonus. However, it does seem that at least two major manufacturers are quite explicit in their reason for putting them there in the first place.

I believe, then, that the nib predates both firms so still a guess as to purpose by them I suppose. If a purely decorative flourish it has to be the most uninspiring one I've ever seen on an old tool. Even in a more ornate iteration they could still serve the purpose that Jacob has suggested as does a dot of paint, marker, etc. It is quite handy to know when you've pulled the saw too far back. The feel comes quickly in a one-man shop but in a school or communal shop with people coming and going some sort of indication the saw is about to be pulled too far would have been (is) a good thing, at least for the person responsible for keeping the saws in good shape or paying for them to be fixed.

 

[DTR]

The feel comes quickly in a one-man shop but in a school or communal shop with people coming and going some sort of indication the saw is about to be pulled too far would have been (is) a good thing, at least for the person responsible for keeping the saws in good shape or paying for them to be fixed.

Traditionally speaking, weren't saws usually owned individually rather than communally?

 

[Trafalgar]

In schools, no. In a communal workshop maybe. Master-teaching-apprentice (son, nephew, etc.), no. Lots of opportunities for the uninitiated to be using a saw he did not own. Apprentices were not paid enough (if anything) to own their own kit of tools during most of their apprenticeship.

 

[bugbear]

I believe, then, that the nib predates both firms so still a guess as to purpose by them I suppose. If a purely decorative flourish it has to be the most uninspiring one I've ever seen on an old tool. Even in a more ornate iteration they could still serve the purpose that Jacob has suggested as does a dot of paint, marker, etc. It is quite handy to know when you've pulled the saw too far back. The feel comes quickly in a one-man shop but in a school or communal shop with people coming and going some sort of indication the saw is about to be pulled too far would have been (is) a good thing, at least for the person responsible for keeping the saws in good shape or paying for them to be fixed.

And a hammer head could serve the purpose of a door stop.

But it's not what is was made for.

The jump from "could be used for" to "made for" requires evidence.

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Here's the link to the Disstonian Institute FAQs, citing The Lumberman's Handbook as the source of the Disston quote;

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/faq.html

 

[Trafalgar]

Here's the link to the Disstonian Institute FAQs, citing The Lumberman's Handbook as the source of the Disston quote;

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/faq.html

From your link:

Disston and Sons published an explanation in their [emphasis added] Lumberman Handbook stating...

So it seems that the argument would be a bit circular since Disston authored it themselves. They are not quoting from a third-party source.

If it's decorative, it's pretty lousy.

 

[Trafalgar]

I believe, then, that the nib predates both firms so still a guess as to purpose by them I suppose. If a purely decorative flourish it has to be the most uninspiring one I've ever seen on an old tool. Even in a more ornate iteration they could still serve the purpose that Jacob has suggested as does a dot of paint, marker, etc. It is quite handy to know when you've pulled the saw too far back. The feel comes quickly in a one-man shop but in a school or communal shop with people coming and going some sort of indication the saw is about to be pulled too far would have been (is) a good thing, at least for the person responsible for keeping the saws in good shape or paying for them to be fixed.

And a hammer head could serve the purpose of a door stop.

But it's not what is was made for.

The jump from "could be used for" to "made for" requires evidence.

BugBear

That's a bit of a drastic and strained analogy since the nib is integral to the saw; a hammer is neither integral to a door or the floor upon which it lies if used as a doorstop. The nib cannot be removed from the saw and used for another purpose.

The assertion that the nib is purely for decoration never made much sense to me since it is anything but decorative.

 

[bugbear]

I believe, then, that the nib predates both firms so still a guess as to purpose by them I suppose. If a purely decorative flourish it has to be the most uninspiring one I've ever seen on an old tool. Even in a more ornate iteration they could still serve the purpose that Jacob has suggested as does a dot of paint, marker, etc. It is quite handy to know when you've pulled the saw too far back. The feel comes quickly in a one-man shop but in a school or communal shop with people coming and going some sort of indication the saw is about to be pulled too far would have been (is) a good thing, at least for the person responsible for keeping the saws in good shape or paying for them to be fixed.

And a hammer head could serve the purpose of a door stop.

But it's not what is was made for.

The jump from "could be used for" to "made for" requires evidence.

BugBear

That's a bit of a drastic analogy since the nib is integral to the saw; a hammer is neither integral to a door or the floor upon which it lies if used as a doorstop. The nib cannot be removed from the saw and used for another purpose.

Neither can the lamb's tongue on the handle.

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

But a lamb's tongue IS purely for decoration, and is in fact decorative. It is unlikely the nib is the former and certainly not the latter for anybody with any aesthetic sense at all. You and I have both seen antique tools with decorative features. If the nib is for decoration, again, it is remarkably poorly conceived as such.

 

[Jacob]

If no other purpose for the nib can be found other than the very useful function of depth indicator, then it's reasonable to assume that that is it.
It's simple archaeology - if you find a worked-up pointy bone with a hole at one end like a needle, it's reasonable to assume that it was intended as a needle.
Similarly with hollow bone with holes like a flute; it probably was a flute-like object. :shock:
Could be wrong in both cases but until better evidence comes along we'll never know.

 

[Jacob]

Here's the link to the Disstonian Institute FAQs, citing The Lumberman's Handbook as the source of the Disston quote;

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/faq.html

From your link:

Disston and Sons published an explanation in their [emphasis added] Lumberman Handbook stating...

So it seems that the argument would be a bit circular since Disston authored it themselves. They are not quoting from a third-party source.

If it's decorative, it's pretty lousy.

Nibs existed before Disston made saws. That they have forgotten what they were for is interesting but not entirely surprising.

 

[bugbear]

Here's an actual example of an extant early (late 17th, early 18th c) saw nib.

Suggestion as to purpose invited. One might note that it's not Jacob's "4" from the end"... (which he's never seen, so now he's learnt something)

It's self-evidently not a beginners-end-of-saw-indicator. :roll:

BugBear (posting actual, dated, evidence)

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Evidence.

Well, at the moment, we have the handbooks of two large 19th century saw makers, both of whom say the nib is decorative. Then we have various theories for which there is (as far as we know) no documentary evidence.

Thus, on the basis of the AVAILABLE evidence, we have to go with 'decoration' - until someone presents better evidence.

Personally, I think it's a carpenter's back-scratcher. I don't have any written evidence for that, but it's obvious when you think about it, isn't it? :lol: