The opposite of Paxman

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bugbear

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I loved Derren Brown giving Joe Power (a self-claimed medium) plenty of rope to hang himself, instead of Paxo's "hammer till it breaks" approach.

And (sure enough) Joe Power hung himself high. Brown hardly had to do a thing!

BugBear
 
bugbear":19ezyulp said:
I loved Derren Brown giving Joe Power (a self-claimed medium) plenty of rope to hang himself, instead of Paxo's "hammer till it breaks" approach.

And (sure enough) Joe Power hung himself high. Brown hardly had to do a thing!

BugBear
Missed this, when was it on? Which channel?
 
I don't know whether to say Hats Off to Power for agreeing to be "investigated" or Hats Off to Brown for showing up this showman. Perhaps the guy believes he really is psychic, who knows, but nothing what he did requires paranormal ability.

Brown is a very experienced magician and performer and you would have to be pretty darned good to get past him. I'm just glad he makes it clear that what he does is not "real magic".

FWIW this sort of stuff (claims and counter-claims) has been going on for ever. When Houdini's wife died, he was heartbroken and really wanted to contact her on the other side. Spiritualism was very big in those days and Houdini went to everyone he could find to try to contact her.In eery case he was able to reproduce the effects in a purely rational, physical way. He died disappointed.

Personally I am in two minds about Brown. Yes he is very good at what he does, very good indeed. But some of the psychological stuff he does seems to me to verge on the abusive. I'm thinking of getting a young woman to witness her own faked death, for example, or getting ordinary people to commit armed robbery. That strikes me as being pretty irresponsible, no matter how clever.

But he is a good magician, and the Power bloke isn't.

On the other hand, he is making a living.

S
 
It made me wonder why Joe Power even agreed to it! :D

Last year some time, didn't Derren Brown challenge Derek Acorah (who's been exposed in the past) to something similar? The Scousser chickened out so, I guess Power was one of the only ones 'foolish' enough to do it.

I've never understood how Derek Acorah went from being exposed on Most Haunted (another member of the crew fed him false information) to later having his own show on Sky?! :? The guy's nuts, though! Like Power, he also seems to truly believe he can communicate with the dead, through his 'friend'... :D

What always makes me smile is how they can produce all sorts of information about your life yet, when it comes to someone's name, the spirit's never seem to pronounce it clearly enough, first time! :D

Another odd thing was how Power didn't appear to blink more than once during the entire show! :shock: :)
 
I've never thought that peeps like Accorah had much credence. Followers wanted to believe.

The only occassion i've had cause to wonder was shortly after my gran died, about 18 years ago. My mum and her sisters (4 in total) consulted a medium a few months after their mother died (my gran). No info was asked for, or given, prior to the meeting. The first sister in was told by the medium that she had a strange image coming to her. It was a sack. A potato sack. Overflowing with potatoes. But written on the sack was not "potato", but "spud".

My Gran's nickname was Spud - due to her being Irish and being partial to her potato's!

But on the whole I remain a sceptic.

Cheers

Karl
 
OPJ":1d0v6t8n said:
It made me wonder why Joe Power even agreed to it! :D

probably thinking that any publicity is good publicity

okay so he made a **** of himself on national tv , but on the otherhand it gets his name in the papers and not everyone who sees it will disbelieve
 
And therein lies the whole problem with all of this 'is it real - is it fake' psychology stuff. People who want to believe will believe, people who are sceptic will always be sceptical about anything other than the most hard evidence and even then still suspect its a trick but they haven't figured it out yet. Never underestimate the gullibility of the general population.

If you noticed the audience at the show the 'psychic' did, they were almost all female, working class and out for a good evening. They were not a bunch of investigators, scientists or people looking for the 'trick', they were looking for a good evenings entertainment. If there was a bit of sauce, or gossip, or 'spying' into someone elses life then so much the better. What they were not looking for was to know that someones Great Aunt Edith was happy you took care of her cat when she died. The audience have paid to see this - if you are a sceptic you are much less likely to part with cash to see this type of show. So the audience is already self selecting to want to believe whatever the performer comes up with. Start off with a bunch of observational details, get them on your side, and away you go. Not saying the performer does not have some skill at manipulating an audience, they certainly do. Its when it crosses the line of being entertainment to something else that I have a problem with it.

Is it a con, or is it entertainment? I think that depends how far you take it. Saying you have contacted someones distant ancestor, harmless fun. Saying you have contacted someones close relative who died of breast cancer / car crash / suicide is way past entertainment and into something that should really result in a charge of emotional cruelty in my opinion unless the 'psychic' can prove under scientific conditions they really are speaking to said loved one.

Penn and Teller once did a similar expose of 'mediums', outlining the types of tricks they use, how they observe the subject and make inferences from obvious cues such as dress and attitude down to more subtle reactions to things the 'medium' is saying. Start by saying 'I am getting a faint image of a man, would that mean anything to you' and 50% of the time they will be right. Then say 'its a relative, fairly close to you, correct' and wait for the punter to fill in the gaps. The immediate response is 'oh, yes, my uncle Joe' or similar. Recording the medium showed they actually guessed very little, and allowed the punter to fill in the vast majority of the details themselves. Yet ask the punter afterwards and they say 'its uncanny how much they knew, they really must have been talking to Uncle Joe, I am so pleased I went'.

For me, the guy on the show was a 100% fake. But then I am a sceptic. To others he would have been genuine and I doubt his career is suddenly going to fold as a consequence of appearing on the show. To some Derren Brown is amazing, and he is certainly a consumate performer, reader of an audience and also a magician of some talent - he has done close up street magic before as well as the more 'mind reading' type stuff. The difference is that Derren Brown admits freely he is an entertainer, and what he does is trickery. Its figuring out how he does it that gives the sceptic entertainment value from watching Derren.

Steve Maskery wrote:

Brown is a very experienced magician and performer and you would have to be pretty darned good to get past him. I'm just glad he makes it clear that what he does is not "real magic".

Not sure I understand this Steve. I know you put 'real magic' in quotes, but surely all magic is simply decieving the audience into believing something their own experience says cannot happen, did happen. Sawing a lady in half, walking through the great wall of China, producing doves from an empty top hat, reading someones mind or guessing correctly the order of 52 cards in a deck. Its all trickery and manipulation, just that some of it is sleight of hand and some of it is sleight of thought. You need to be very good indeed to do either consistently well.

Steve
 
You have it spot on, Steve. I simply meant that DB makes no claims of having supernatural ability, despite being as convincing (to some) as Powers.

S
 
Is it a con?

I think you have to consider that there are plenty of people prepared to believe (kid themselves in my opinion) in ghosts and spirits and that Powers is quite possibly one of them. I think once you've sold yourself down a route then your mind will jump through all sorts of hoops and tie itself in all sorts of knots to pull the wool over your eyes and deny the reality of what you're doing.

I think there is a question of which comes first: whether Power is kidding other people or kidding himself. Is malice is required before you call someone a con? Are the people who run alpha courses, for example, con-men and con-women?
 
StevieB":fjjfitfo said:
For me, the guy on the show was a 100% fake. But then I am a sceptic. To others he would have been genuine and I doubt his career is suddenly going to fold as a consequence of appearing on the show.

I suspect that to "believers" Power will now be that nice medium who that nasty Derren Brown tried to stitch up on his selectively edited and not-fair-at-all program.

BugBear
 
I agree with pretty much with all that has been said, with the proviso that I don't dismiss the idea of Ghosts and Spirits completely; I have an open mind about that having had several 'odd' experiences that common sense has been unable to fully explain.
I do however have huge doubts that anyone 'from here' can 'contact' anyone 'from there'.
IMO the bloke in the program was a total fake.
 
which is a shame because i'd like to get a medium to contact my gt uncle charlie - the old bastarrd died owing me twenty quid and i'd like the medium to get it back for me ;) :D
 
BSM, I am a fantastic and world renowned medium. I can guarantee to contact said Uncle and guarantee to get the £20 back for you. Only requires a single one hour session. My fees are very reasonable, £100 per hour. Let me know if you want to take me up on the offer :)
 
MikeH":1rhdyey2 said:
BSM, I am a fantastic and world renowned medium. I can guarantee to contact said Uncle and guarantee to get the £20 back for you. Only requires a single one hour session. My fees are very reasonable, £100 per hour. Let me know if you want to take me up on the offer :)

sound plan - send me your bank account details , (and pin numbers as a sign of good faith) :lol:

alternately you could tell him he owes me 200 notes and take your fee out of the proceeds ;)
 
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