The importance of practising what one preaches

[siggy_7]

First and foremost, glad to see that Steve has not suffered more serious injury than he did. Top marks for sharing his experience also. I had a recent unfortunate incident with my TS that I have not had the courage to come on here and discuss, mainly because of the self-righteous nature of the responses I am sure that would elicit. Off the back of this, I have bought Steve's Table Saw DVD set with the explicit aim of building a SUVA type guard for my saw.

Aside from a couple of safety deficiencies that Steve has pointed out with a typical crown guard fixed to the riving knife, there is one big problem with this type of guard - they prevent anything other than severing cuts. The riving knife has to extend above the height of the blade to support them without losing depth of cut, so if you have this type of guard normally fitted then you have to take the guard off (normally easy) but also the riving knife needs to be adjusted/removed and replaced with one that matches the top of the blade. My riving knife wouldn't adjust down far enough, so I made a different one that I have set with the top of the blade. Removing and realigning an RK is a pain on most saws, so in practice the fact that these types of guards prevent a lot of cuts from being made means they are taken off and never re-fitted. Anything that is a significant operational inconvenience conflicts with the realities of people who want to get things done. The difficulty in re-fitting the RK increases the risk that in practice they are never used. If people want to be in denial about reality that's their perogative, but it doesn't advance safety - what is needed is a guard that works for the full range of cuts that will be attempted, or a number of guards that are easy to swap out that work well for the different operations. Crown guards fail both of these tests.

I really don't see what the problem with a sturdily mounted and correctly set up SUVA guard is. As far as I can tell they are standard on the better, more industrial machinery on offer from the likes of Altendorf, Felder et al, so they must have something going for them. Steve has clearly come a cropper because his own guard wasn't adjusted correctly, not because of a shortcoming in the concept.

I have a sliding table format type saw, which only tilts right but can only have the fence on the right. Someone mentioned a jig that improves the safety of a bevelled cut for people with this limitation - if they would be so kind as to put a link into this thread I would be grateful. I would always use a short fence for this operation anyway, but this thread has got me thinking that may not necessarily be enough.

 

[Graham Orm]

When you think about it, the only thing either guard will do is stop you landing on top of the blade. Neither a crown or SUVA will stop flying debris fired at the force that a kick back or similar is sent.
The whole idea of a table saw is ludicrously dangerous. (I own one). I remember taking a 12" two stroke stone cutter to a mechanic for repair. He'd never seen one before and said "So it's a moped engine with a spinning blade instead of a wheel and you use it free hand? Are you F****n insane?).

It seemed normal practice for me to use the thing, but his observation set me thinking. This thread seems to have evolved into how best not to damage yourself whilst doing something 'insane'.

 

[lurker]

. Top marks for sharing his experience also. I had a recent unfortunate incident with my TS that I have not had the courage to come on here and discuss, mainly because of the self-righteous nature of the responses I am sure that would elicit. .

I agree it was brave of him and its a shame you felt the way you did about your own incident, although I would have done the same as you and for the reasons you state.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Hey! That's two things that Jacob and I agree on! Better setup and two pushsticks!
I'm looking forward to your round on Thursday. The second one is on me.

I still maintain that the guard itself is good, though. Today I have scrounged some PETG (a developed version of polycarbonate, apparently), whose full title is PolywhatalongnamEThishasGot. I think, although it may or may not be free, that I have also got some steel for the arms. The current ones are laminates, but I knew at the time that steel would be better. But as I have explained, I was under a certain amount of stress at the time. Otherwise, the rebuild will be the same. I'll just take a bit more care over where exactly I mount it.

S

 

[Jacob]

...
I still maintain that the guard itself is good, though. ...

Hmm, dunno. I might change my mind after a few pints.

 

[RobinBHM]

Bevelled cuts are not so easy to guard.

My panel saw has a large arm with an overhead guard, which raises and lowers via a lever. All very good but the guard has to be changed for a much wider one to accommodate the blade when tilted. It works, but obscures the view, restricts fence adjustment and makes the use of push sticks awkward.

A crown guard mounted on the rk will tilt with the blade, so could be an advantage in this situation, although I suppose the tilting will make the guard lower on the fence side so could be in the way

 

[Flynnwood]

OK - serious question.

In this instance that Steve had, what would be the potential problem(s) if the piece was PULLED instead of PUSHED?

Discuss?

 

[PAC1]

OK - serious question.

In this instance that Steve had, what would be the potential problem(s) if the piece was PULLED instead of PUSHED?

Discuss?

You cannot keep the wood against the fence when pulling. You also tend to lift the wood. Both mean no control

 

[PAC1]

A SUVA mounted on the RK might be an answer as long as it does not reduce the depth of cut. Scott and Seargent say theirs does not reduce the depth of cut. It certainly looks an improvement on the flimsy crown guard on my Felder

 

[Graham Orm]

This is interesting. Go to 30 seconds in to see a kick back jamming mechanism. Then to the end to see the gadget that jams the blade if you put a hot dog sausage against it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRygWpXXYJ4

 

[Jacob]

......
Aside from a couple of safety deficiencies that Steve has pointed out with a typical crown guard fixed to the riving knife, there is one big problem with this type of guard - they prevent anything other than severing cuts.

Yes but you are not really supposed to do anything other than "severing" cuts on a TS.
Most dangerous is a slot along the grain. These have inherent risk of kick back - most commonly because the wood may distort as it is cut, and nip the blade. Also they risk getting jammed with shavings. The stubby riving knife could make things worse in that respect.
If you want to do slots you really need a spindle with any of the various slotting devices on offer - wobble saws etc. Basically they cut a wide kerf which can't jam.
Cross cutting slots (housings etc) is safer as they are generally short cuts and you won't get the distortion or the sawdust build up - but the workpiece needs to be very firmly held on a sliding table or sledge of some sort. A suva guide may help here I suppose, but personally I'd simply use long push sticks - and drop the blade down as soon as it is out of use.
Re your accident - we all need to know what happened! It would be your contribution to our safety understanding and you might save someone else from making the same mistake, whatever it was.

 

[PAC1]

Cutting a slot (groove) on a Table saw is permitted if you have a shaw guard and riving knife fitted. The problem is not many TS take a shaw guard these days. You also need a riving knife that does not go higher than the blade. The H&S recommend using an automatic feeder! in place of a shaw guard. I can see how it would reduce the risk of kick back but I am yet to try.

 

[Graham Orm]

I googled 'shaw guard' and came up with all sorts, including this, which looks like it would withstand significant abuse from flying bits and would be quick to adjust.

 

[PAC1]

Graham
Yes that is it, but you try finding one like the drawing that you can buy. I like the wooden pieces. Modern ones are made of all metal so no good for the saw. I would make one but my metalwork skills are not up to it.
When I did my apprenticeship we had one that fitted both the spindle and saw.

 

[Jacob]

Yes those are shaw guards - but not an ideal set up; they are both fixed to the one column, so if one gets knocked the other also gets loosened. They ought to be fixed separately. If you have the metal spring type you can fit wooden jaws to them.
I prefer a pair of wood feathers - one pressing down clamped to the fence and the other pressing in and clamped to the table.
Better still; a power feed.

 

[pcb1962]

I googled 'shaw guard' and came up with all sorts, including this, which looks like it would withstand significant abuse from flying bits and would be quick to adjust.

Is the blade within the guarded area, or to the right of the picture?

 

[Graham Orm]

Graham
Yes that is it, but you try finding one like the drawing that you can buy. I like the wooden pieces. Modern ones are made of all metal so no good for the saw. I would make one but my metalwork skills are not up to it.
When I did my apprenticeship we had one that fitted both the spindle and saw.

Shouldn't be too hard. It's on my list!

 

[Graham Orm]

I googled 'shaw guard' and came up with all sorts, including this, which looks like it would withstand significant abuse from flying bits and would be quick to adjust.

Is the blade within the guarded area, or to the right of the picture?

I would imagine so. Protecting you from landing on it in the event of a slip and from kick back too. You could line the front of it up with the front edge of the blade so you can see what's happening and feather boards as previously mentioned will keep everything in place.

 

[mindthatwhatouch]

Steve,

I am trying to understand, what went on with the wooden upright support that has split. I take it this is a result of you moving the guard into the saw blade and this causing the support to crack, or could it be that the flex here allowed the guard to contact the blade? Is it an option to stiffen this, maybe make it out of metal?

Glad you are still in one piece, and thank you for sharing this (I speak as a table saw complete newbie)

Tony

 

[Flynnwood]

OK - serious question.

In this instance that Steve had, what would be the potential problem(s) if the piece was PULLED instead of PUSHED?

Discuss?

You cannot keep the wood against the fence when pulling. You also tend to lift the wood. Both mean no control

Thanks. I would like to know though, why you could not use 2 pull sticks instead of push sticks. An appropriate featherboard would keep the wood from lifting?

i.e. If the fence ends at the gullet of the first tooth, and the 2 PULLsticks are beyond that (further back), why would that not work and remove all risk?

It may be a stupid question (I don't have a TS to try this out on yet) ................ but it's surely about directional forces?