The GREAT sharpening debate

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BugBear
 
Completely bonkers. :roll:
If Brent Beach comes anywhere near me I'll wave my honing jig at him:-

shave3a.jpg
 
Jacob":fly5q4on said:
Completely bonkers. :roll:
If Brent Beach comes anywhere near me I'll wave my honing jig at him:-
I like that. I'm going to go and hack a lump of branch and make on just like it.
 
243SS":emm435on said:
Jacob":emm435on said:
Completely bonkers. :roll:
If Brent Beach comes anywhere near me I'll wave my honing jig at him:-
I like that. I'm going to go and hack a lump of branch and make on just like it.
Make 'one' perhaps?
I wouldn't make on it - you could cut yourself.
 
So what's the best wood for a little stick guide like that then?...how seasoned does it need to be? Do I need to have those side shoots cut off to give extra grip or is it best to leave a few little stubs to wrap fingers around?
 
243SS":2javyxwc said:
So what's the best wood for a little stick guide like that then?...how seasoned does it need to be? Do I need to have those side shoots cut off to give extra grip or is it best to leave a few little stubs to wrap fingers around?
Ask Brent Beach. He could get it up to 100 pages; 80 isn't enough IMHO.
 
Hello,

Wooden jigs aside, there is some really interesting and useful findings here. Some confirm what many of us already know and some back up findings from other tests, but arrived at from different approaches, which surely confirms these to be valid. For example, he finds that thicker irons will still continue to perfom with a level of wear that thinner irons could not; cap-iron effect is only evident with extremely close settings to the blade edge; very fine abrasives make a longer lasting edge than coarser abrasives with stropping (due to upsetting the metal's crystaline structure) back bevels are useful at least because this ensures that the back is treated as well as the bevel, but especially as it ensures the wear is removed far enough back to eliminate it from both sides, not just the bevel side, which is especially useful for bevel up planes. ( I sharpen 2 doz LA block planes with back bevels as a matter of course in the tech dept). It is strange that this article has more constructive things to say about why we do things the way we do, and most comments so far have been about sticks!

Mike.
 
Indeed Brent has collected a lot of interesting data. But I have the feeling that he is basing all his findings on one type of meassurement: looking through a microscope at the edge. If you really want to know what happens you will need a lot more meassurements, like the forces acting on the blade, looking at what happens to the woodsurface, even looking at what happens with the shavings.

Of course the Japanese Kato/Kawai have allready worked uot a lot of detail. It's a pitty most of their work isn't available in English. But here is an interesting one, translated in English: http://planetuning.infillplane.com/html/review_of_cap_iron_study.html

One example where Brent is drawing conclusions too far ahead of his meassurement is about the chipbreaker. Looking at the size of the wearbevels he concludes that a chipbreaker can't break chips, so it doesn't work unless set rediculously close to the edge. Where he goes worng in this conclusion is the fact that the chipbreaker doesn't break chips, it supports the shaving, bending it back to the wood, so it can be cleanly cut. Only looking at the wearbevels won't ever give you that kind of insight. I doubt he really tried at that time how good a chipbreaker works at a distance much farther away from the edge.

These backbevels of him are also interesting. I think most people who don't use backbevels, do put more pressure with their fingers, just behind the edge, when finishing the back and removing the wireedge. Would this also remove the wearbevel? Do you really need to remove all of the wearbevel, or is it a tiny microbevel in itself?

So, overall, while looking through a microsope can give some interesting information, you should never forget to look at the larger picture.

And then there are a lot of people who don't really want to know what happens at the edge and just sharpen their blade and go to cutting some wood. I guess that's fine too. :mrgreen:
 
Corneel":1a8y2b4m said:
Indeed Brent has collected a lot of interesting data. But I have the feeling that he is basing all his findings on one type of meassurement: looking through a microscope at the edge. If you really want to know what happens you will need a lot more meassurements, like the forces acting on the blade, looking at what happens to the woodsurface, even looking at what happens with the shavings.

Indeed - but even the "one type of measurement" Brent has done took a long time, and is valuable data, far more carefully done than most "reviews".

Knowledge is compiled from multiple sources, and Brent has provided an excellent source - just not (as you say) the whole story.

Conversely, Steve Elliot has done some narrowly focused steel wear tests.

BugBear
 
Yup, I agree. Just be carefull with his conclusions.
I wish more of Kato and Kawai was available in a western language.
 
Corneel":27l0fkd7 said:
......
So, overall, while looking through a microsope can give some interesting information, you should never forget to look at the larger picture.......
Be more interesting if somebody looked at the wood surface with a microscope. The wood gets left out of the equation.
 
Although not a fanatic about sharpening, like some, I do agree with Jacob in as much its about the wood not the tool. If I could get a fantastic finish with a cheese slicer i'd be happy. I would not spend 10 years analysing the impact on human society of using a cheese slicer and how a cheese slicer compared to every other cutting blade in the entire history of mankind. When Chippendale had his workshop and produced his wonderful furniture I don't think he was using PM-V11 steel alloy or blades made from a hyper steel alloy made from a rare meteorite.
 
Hi,

Some people like to understand exactly what is going on, we call them scientists, and they have made every part of our life better, and I would like to thank them.

Pete
 
Pete Maddex":v8m7y6j4 said:
Hi,

Some people like to understand exactly what is going on, we call the scientists, and they have made every part of our life better, and I would like to thank them.

Pete
B Beach isn't a scientist - he's an obsessive sharpening enthusiast. Is he also a woodworker?
 
He uses scientific methods, therefore he's a scientist.

Pete
 
He's a bit of a hobby scientist. And because handplanes isn't a hot research topic anymore, we won't get anything better.
 
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