The EZ Story

[davegw]

Dino,

I have no issue with you or your product, it looks like a good innovation, and I am sure it hase benefits over table saws and other guiderail systems.

I guess the thing that bothers me, having just watched your video, is the kind of claim that just wouldn't make it past our advertising standards watchdog.

I am talking about this quote "Many people are killed by Table Saw kick backs"

I'd like to see the studies and statistics that back that up? Especially in Europe?

 

[YCF Dino]

I don't have a saw rail system, but I enjoy looking at Dino's stuff on the web. I love his enthusiasm and he seems a nice bloke. Think I'll get an "I like Dino" T-shirt printed 8) 8)

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Paul,
Katy is working on the T-shirts.
We have many requests and needs.
All money from D-T-shorts are going to a charity.

Thanks.

 

[xraymtb]

I've spent the past week reading all of these EZ Smart topics (on here and other forums).

I do think that Dino may get slightly over zealous in his defence of his systems, and occasionally may make claims that are not backed up, however I also think that his videos speak for themselves and that it is a good product that can rival a tablesaw for many workshops.

I for one am not put off by what I have read however when I do buy an EZ system (which I will as soon as I can afford it!!) it will be because I have seen what it can do in his videos.

 

[YCF Dino]

I'd like to see the studies and statistics that back that up? Especially in Europe?

Dave,
I will find the known numbers for dead by kickbacks.
For now, I only have the numbers in accidents.
60.000 in US alone. ( yearly)
I'm sure that in 60.000 accidents we have many fatalities.

You have to keep in mind that innocent DIY's and carpenters without any training can go to any store and buy a tablesaw and other very danger tools without any training etc.

AND WE ALL PAY FOR IT.

When I make a video I always remember a young kid ( 17) with one finger left. That was from his father's tablesaw and the poor kid was working with his father.
A secret moment that turned into a family disaster.

To me, enough is enough.

Thanks.

 

[davegw]

I'd like to see the studies and statistics that back that up? Especially in Europe?

Dave,
I will find the known numbers for dead by kickbacks.
For now, I only have the numbers in accidents.
60.000 in US alone. ( yearly)
I'm sure that in 60.000 accidents we have many fatalities.

You have to keep in mind that innocent DIY's and carpenters without any training can go to any store and buy a tablesaw and other very danger tools without any training etc.

AND WE ALL PAY FOR IT.

When I make a video I always remember a young kid ( 17) with one finger left. That was from his father's tablesaw and the poor kid was working with his father.
A secret moment that turned into a family disaster.

To me, enough is enough.

Thanks.

Dino

Again Please note I am not doubting the efficacy of your product, or your want to reduce accidents. But I am questioning your advertising claims and methods.

I've done a little digging myself and I'd be very surprised if you can find the numbers for Death in the US let alone in Europe, caused specifically by kickback.

Of the 60,000 you quote none seem to attributed to Kickback, and 3000 end in amputation, given that death isn't mentioned it's seems fairly reasonable to assume in fact that this number is negligible. It's also worth noting that these numbers are based on a study sponsored by the manufacturer of a Table Saw safety device for the US Consumer Product Safety Commission as part or a partition to have their device fitted to all table saws, hardly an impartial source.

In this report in fact they say in their survey less than 30% of injuries could be directly attributed to kickback, and 23% of these could have been avoided if a splitter (what we would call I riving knife I think) was installed.

Applying that to your 60000 number and you still come up with 13,398 injuries (still no deaths). Surely this is more than enough surely to advertise your product without resorting to distortion?

Maybe you could apply your intellect to saving the 30000 Americans described in this report who died actually from sexual activity?

 

[wizer]

Dave I do think your nitpicking. It's a safe method of working. If it saves one life, it's good. Isn't it?

 

[davegw]

Dave I do think your nitpicking. It's a safe method of working. If it saves one life, it's good. Isn't it?

I don't (surprisingly) my point is the claim isn't true, and I don't personally believe that the ends always justify the means.

Already your comment buys into the statement that even one life is taken by kick back on a table saw and that Dinos product would have stopped it. We don't know if either of those statements is even close to true.

If it's a good product (and as I have said, I don't doubt that it is) let it sell on it's own merit rather than on inflated or misleading claims.

Personally having seen it in action I would probably buy one, but that is based on what Dino did rather than what he said.

 

[Niki]

Oh, Oh,
Well, it looks like an "old friend" is coming to visit us again...he was called "ez dino" at his previous version...but after being banned, he re-registered as YCF Dino......

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... hp?t=11196

If you'll not see any connection between the replies, it's probably because the moderators removed a few of his replies...

And then, the "followers" - "crossed the pond" to "explain" ((look for Burt Wanddell reply to ByronBlake) .......and if you have the time to read all the 7 pages of the thread, you'll see some more "rail guided systems".....
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... c&start=30

BTW, DeWallt has a new guide system similar to Festool but with corded and cordless circular saws....I hope the DeWalt or Festool CEO's will come to defend their systems....

Those posts, reminds me the "good old times" in "Sawmill Creek" forum that, every Festool or EZ post turned to a fight between the "followers"....there was the "EZ army" with Dino as a leader and, the "Festool army"....without any "Chief of stuff"...
Nowadays, Dino has it's own forum in SMC so, almost no "wars"....

Personally, I don't need any of the guide systems, if I need, say, 100 boards (plywood, Melamine or MDF) to build kitchen cabinets....except the material price (per square Meter), I have to pay additional $50 (£25) (that means, £0.25 per piece) and I get the boards cut to my "cut list" with a CNC saw (50,000 Euro) delivered at the same or the next day....Super clean cut, very accurate, no carrying of heavy 8' x 4' no dust and, I don't have any "left-overs"...

I don't know how the thinks are in other countries but here, in this poor post communist country (Poland) every SERIOUS cabinets maker (I'm talking about Melamine, Plywood or MDF kitchens, bathroom etc. cabinets) has one of those Felder or alike....the Festool, or other EU rail system is made for working on the site...

As for the "dead wood concept"...well, Dino knows his people....as per Kelly Mehler, only 5% of the American woodworkers use the blade guard (crown guard).....
From reading around, most of the Americans remove all the "Blade guard / Splitter / Anti-kickback pawls" because "They are always on the way"...

I think that the Riving Knife came-up in the 60th (Scrit can give us more reliable information)....only now, it starts to penetrate the American market (it's still not a regulation) and a few new designs are already incorporating the "Euro Riving Knife for safety" but, only a few American woodworkers heard about the "Short Fence" concept that can prevent the kickback...

I don't have nothing against the EZ, Festool or other system. I just don't like that, the "Inventor / Owner" is stepping-in. This kind of posts can (and did) lead to a conflict between the members...

Do you remember the person that advertised his new woodworking magazine...and do you remember the conflict that followed by a few members leaving the forum....

niki

 

[davegw]

Do you remember the person that advertised his new woodworking magazine...and do you remember the conflict that followed by a few members leaving the forum....

niki

And to avoid any bad feeling (and having said my piece) I'll shut up.

 

[wizer]

that advertised

Dino isn't advertising. I started this thread.

And to avoid any bad feeling (and having said my piece) I'll shut up.

I should probably do that too. But I will say that I posted this in the hope that those who look coldly at the EZ system might warm up a bit after seeing EZ get some critical acclaim. Plus there are a few members here who are customers.

Let's hope that EZ becomes more successful and can afford a promotional manager who doesn't emit a love/hate relationship with it's prospective customers.

BTW: There is a series of British YouTube videos if anyone is at all interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJCkIC9I1-w&feature=user

 

[YCF Dino]

Oh, Oh,
Well, it looks like an "old friend" is coming to visit us again...

I just don't like that, the "Inventor / Owner" is stepping-in. This kind of posts can (and did) lead to a conflict between the members...


niki

Niki,
You know very well how you started a fight calling the EZ's copy cats.
I know that you don't liked what you saw in the video.
You don't even said: Good job Dino. :roll:

I'm not falling into your trap this time.
If you loved woodworking and safety as much as I and other members of this forum do, the least you should have done is say something nice about THE TOOL and forget about EZ Dino and YCF Dino.

The Tool Niki and not your personal interest in me. :roll:

Love you. :wink:
EZ-YCF Dino

 

[Niki]

Hi Dino

Small "terminological" correction, I said:
"One of those EZs may patent it before you know." ( praising LyNx - Andy- cleaver jig) and not "copy cat"...(look at the link on my post).

I'll tell you the truth....I even did not watch the video so, I cannot comment about the tool...as I said, I don't need rail system. For my occasional very long cut, I have a straight edge and "off-set" positioning blocks and for all the rest - table saw with Riving Knife, blade guard and "short fence" if and when required.

I do love woodworking and I do love safety....If you'll go through may posts, you will always see the blade guard and the RK installed and not "Removed for clarity" like in - as you know and see - the TV shows, videos and posts in USA that the guy is DECLEARING that "Personally, I don't use the blade guard" and the video was about "Table Saw SAFETY".... Oh, and I removed the pictures of posts that the members here saw as dangerous operation...

As I said in my post, I don't have any thing against EZ, Festool, DeWalt or others...but, when the owner of the system/tool is coming to a forum (that everybody is SHARING his ideas for free) and "protecting" his product - to me it looks like advertisement or if you like - marketing...sorry but, I don't see any "sharing" or "contribution" when the only thing that a member is presenting is, his tool that "knows to do more than the others" to me, it looks like "guiding the members to buy the "CORRECT" tool....

I think that you have to leave it to the members to decide which one is the best for them...unless, Festool, DeWalt and other makers will also step-in and present/protect their products but then....it wood not be a woodworking forum but "manufacturers fight forum"

Just Imagine that, a member is making a post about Festool rail guide and gets a few replies from members that owns the EZ or other------and suddenly-----"Mr Festool" (the owner) is "stepping-in" as a new member to "protect" the Festool system.....I don't know how it looks to you, but to me - it would look like "marketing / advertisement" of Festool system....

Love you too :wink:
niki

 

[wizer]

ok Time out. Let's not turn this into yet another punch up

 

[big soft moose]

ok Time out. Let's not turn this into yet another punch up

sound plan - its amazing that this should course so much aggro when we can calmly discuss dewalt vs makita or similar on other threads

 

[big soft moose]

Big Soft Moose,
Thanks.

Here is a good start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXV2XJTwn9Y

The ez system may look like any other guide system but it was designed from the start to comply 100% with the Dead Wood Concept.

Enjoy the video and remember that the basic ez system is capable of doing the same cuts even without the new PBB ( Power bench- bridge)
and the B-300. ( Bridge-300)

If you can show me any tool capable of doing the same cuts...
( videos and not marketing blah-blah ) then you're correct and I must be
the biggest Con artist.

Thanks.
YCf Dino

It looks like a good system - though i also like the dewalt rail system ( the hard fact tho is as i'm getting married next march i can't afford either of them - i will wind up making my own sled out of mdf to use with my DW circular saw)

however on marketing guff - i mean things like " designed to comply 100% with the dead wood concept " - not meaning to be confrontational , but what does this actually mean ?

as far as i can see you keep the wood still and move the saw , exactly like you do with the dewalt, the mahfell, the makita, the festool, and for that matter with a home made sled. not a revolutionary concept , unless of course i am missing something

also on the safety angle - yes rail systems are arguably safer than table saws but nothing that involves a sharp blade spinning at high rpm can ever be honest described as 100% safe - i'm sure someone somewhere will injure themselves seriously with an eZ system sooner or later - the stupidity of the public at large is hard to over estimate (after all last year 6000 people had fatal accidents involving curtains !!)

 

[YCF Dino]

Big Soft Moose,
Thanks.

Here is a good start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXV2XJTwn9Y

The ez system may look like any other guide system but it was designed from the start to comply 100% with the Dead Wood Concept.

Enjoy the video and remember that the basic ez system is capable of doing the same cuts even without the new PBB ( Power bench- bridge)
and the B-300. ( Bridge-300)

If you can show me any tool capable of doing the same cuts...
( videos and not marketing blah-blah ) then you're correct and I must be
the biggest Con artist.

Thanks.
YCf Dino

It looks like a good system - though i also like the dewalt rail system ( the hard fact tho is as i'm getting married next march i can't afford either of them - i will wind up making my own sled out of mdf to use with my DW circular saw)

Getting married? Why?

I like the Dewalt system for few design features.
Two-directional rails. Better ergonomics, easier to work in small places, you can straight line rip from one side and cut to size from the other without flipping the rail or the wood.
Two tracks for Dewalt and non Dewalt saws.Works with plunge saws and regular saws. I like to use regular saws to eliminate the plunging action that to me, is an extra step and requires pressure from the top to keep the blade from lifting up.
The other reason that I don't like plunge saws is the limited reach.

Now, take another look at the ez system and you may find many similarities. :wink: But a forum is not the right place to talk about "similarities". :wink: At least not for me.

What I don't know and I can't talk about is the connection system.
Someone can jump in and tell us? Self aligning or not?
The only way to tell is from a close-up picture.
The other important feature is the clamping capabilities.
Can you secure and safely cut narrow strips? Or you have to use the tablesaw? Let's face it, Not all of us can rip 1/2" strips safely on the tablesaw and you can't do tapered and compound cuts on very long pieces. Not easy or safe for many users.


however on marketing guff - i mean things like " designed to comply 100% with the dead wood concept " - not meaning to be confrontational , but what does this actually mean ?

The clamping capabilities of the ez system allow the user to clamp any piece of materials. Without the ability to easily clamp narrow pieces, the user is forced to use the tablesaw. Narrow pieces on the tablesaw is a scenario for disaster for many users. Forget about Nikki and few others that they can come up with a safety jig.
The tool on the video is a huge clamp/rail system.
Similar to industrial beam saws and computerized panel saws.



as far as i can see you keep the wood still and move the saw , exactly like you do with the dewalt, the mahfell, the makita, the festool, and for that matter with a home made sled. not a revolutionary concept , unless of course i am missing something

All the above systems don't offer this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrrjLYn-6WY

also on the safety angle - yes rail systems are arguably safer than table saws but nothing that involves a sharp blade spinning at high rpm can ever be honest described as 100% safe - i'm sure someone somewhere will injure themselves seriously with an eZ system sooner or later - the stupidity of the public at large is hard to over estimate (after all last year 6000 people had fatal accidents involving curtains !!)

When I first started, 5 years ago, I can't get liability insurance from any company in US. I paid a fortune to have a special insurance policy in order to sell my products and personally guarantee that if someone have an accident due to a design fault that I will lose my house, my Fiat and not only. I was lucky and now my insurance policy is normal and without any personal guarantee.
I know what you're saying and I don't count that out.
But for now, me and many thousands of ez customers are enjoying
the safety of the Dead Wood Concept.
The difference between any other manufacturer and eurekazone is that we use the tools that we sell to make our tools.
And we have an open mind for new and better ideas.

Thanks guys.
Thanks for the hospitality.

YCf Dino.

 

[wizer]

Moose: In Short. Dino's Dead Wood Concept basically means the wood stays still, clamped, safe. You move the saw.

You are right, no spinning blade is absolutely safe. I guess technically the other guide rail systems offer these advantages, but don't concentrate on them so much. It's not an issue to them. Also Dino's concept is carried over to the Bridge system, which is their main focus. I have already said that I'd prefer a TS. But I can't argue with the fact that pushing a saw over clamped wood is safer than pushing un-clamped wood into a spinning blade. The degree of safeness is what gets hotly debated.

 

[big soft moose]

fair points - i hadnt realised about the thin bits of wood issue (I'm principally a turner and only just moving into furniture making) tho that said my feeling would be that if its that thin wouldnt you me using a bansaw in prefference to a table saw anyway ?

we have a dewalt rail system at work tho and have never found clamping to be an issue - if the dewalt clamps arent sufficient on their own we just use some of the hundreds of spring/G/F/ sash clamps that are hanging about the shop. (though to be fair we are largely ripping down plywood for sign boards not doing fiddly furniture things )

 

[filsgreen]

Personally I can't see what all the fuss is about. I have been a member for about two years and in all that time no member has forced me to read a post.

Wizer posted about EZ and right away I knew what it was about. If it bothers some members why not just ignore it. The post brought to my attention a video showing the merits of the system, I'll just reitererate that Dino did not do this, Wizer did.

Cheers

Phil

 

[ike]

(after all last year 6000 people had fatal accidents involving curtains !!)

Bloody Nora! :shock: There was only 3500 deaths on the roads!