The end of the traditionally fitted drawer?

[woodbloke]

Sgian Dubh,
Your description, plywood drawers tongued and grooved is not high quality work, it is work made to a price, it may last, it may fulfill its function, that is what it is functional, but it is not high quality. It`s like comparing Chippendale furniture to Utility furniture, both have stood the test of time. If a customer were to ask you for a high quality piece of furniture and you made them plywood drawers not only are you fooling yourself you`re deceiving your customer.
Regards, Mark

I didn't claim that plywood drawer boxes are of the highest quality, but I was hoping to suggest, as a point to ponder, that high quality professionalism might include drawers of that type.

If a customer asks for a high quality piece it's necessary to establish what a customer understands by that description. It's sometimes the case that the customer's perception of high quality is not the same as the maker's perception. I know how to make traditional drawers, and also know how much to charge for them. I'm also aware that not every customer can pay the price-- some can and some can't.

Another factor to consider is the use a drawer is to be put to. Let's say the customer requires drawers with full extension capabilities, that are opened and closed frequently and daily, and have to carry exceptionally heavy loads of perhaps 60 or 80 kg-- plan chests or some sort of engineering or laboratory furniture might fit the bill. Would the traditional hand dovetailed drawer with slips sliding between runners and kickers be the best quality choice in that situation?

What I'm saying is that the traditional drawer may be 'best quality' but sometimes it's not the 'best choice' as such a drawer might fail rapidly. On the other hand a 'lesser quality' drawer mounted on premium metal slides may be just the right choice for long term trouble free service and efficiency. In that circumstance perhaps the metal slide mounted 'lesser quality' drawer is actually the 'better quality' (or perhaps even 'best quality') option.

'Best quality' surely has to be judged on the circumstances, required function, and maybe other factors, and not on the simple premise that only the "traditional-drawer-is-always-best" criteria. Slainte.

Richard, a succinct statement as usual and one which I feel sums up the discussion. I always favour the traditionaly made drawer, where it is the correct and proper way to do the job, dependent on the limitations or specifications of the customer and eventual use - Rob

 

[Jake]

"Is it possible to make a high quality piece of furniture in a material other than solid wood?" Jake undermines his own argument by then referring to 'subsidiary' materials.

Two different questions, aimed at testing a position which has been stated as fact, that a drawer made of non-solid wood cannot be high class work.

Jake already knows the answer I suspect - see the work of Mark Fish, or before that Matthew Hilton. I don't believe you really dismiss a material other than wood as inferior. I don't.

I know what my answers would be. I'm not sure they are the same as Mark W's, to whom the questions were addressed.

The rest of your logic is falling in anyway - the crappy falls away, the best stays.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by falling in?

Can you show me the future investment drawer runner please... just your view on that area of excellence??

Are you asking for hardware, or a piece of furniture which uses it?

I'm interested that no-one is taking up the metal hinge issue - where's the distinction?

 

[mark w]

jhwbigley,
I`m not too sure what point you are trying to make with your pictures, I think you just proved my point!

Sgian Dubh,
80 kilos in a drawer thats 12 stone 8lbs, I think you`re trying too hard to prove a point, what would be kept in this drawer, a body!

Mark White

 

[moz]

I think the only people who find anything contraversial in what Richard had to say probably don't have to face the problem of trying to make a living making furniture. Budget is always an issue at whatever level. It is a very common scenario for a potential client to start talking about multiple drawers only to have to re-think when faced with the enormous cost. Choices have to be made: don't bother at all; leave the drawers out, or; hang drawers on high quality runners enabling a simpler construction. At this point I show them an example of a hand-made drawer and, without fail,all agree that it is easy to see why it is so expensive. Not all agree that it is important to them though. As to longevity, a drawer runner tested for tens of thousands of cycles destined to be opened and slammed in a busy kitchen all of its lfe isn't going to feel too stressed in a bedside cabinet, especially if plenty of headroom is allowed for, i.e. heavier duty runners than the contents would suggest. And it isn't just about budget. I'm just in the process of making a tool-box for a client in solid oak to contain a small printing press and with two large drawers with dividers to hold all the fonts, tools, and various other bits and bobs. It's a decent budget but really the only choice is a full extension runner. The contents are very heavy and the drawers need to be opened fully. A 'proper' drawer would be a right pain in the bum and would certainly fail before the metal based equivalent. The point is that customers come to us not for a piece of furniture but a whole package of advice, design, sourcing, manufacturing, etc. and the challenge is to meet the brief within the agreed budget which may or may not involve metal runners.

John

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Sgian Dubh,
80 kilos in a drawer thats 12 stone 8lbs, I think you`re trying too hard to prove a point, what would be kept in this drawer, a body! Mark White

Fair enough Mark. In thinking quickly without recourse to proper reflection I just grabbed a number as an example of a heavy weight. 60 to 80 kg is excessive, so let's say a mere 15 or 30 kg. A drawer filled with such things as papers of various sorts, or spindle moulder cutter blocks and cutters (or any other metal items), or perhaps archeological or geological research samples or items, or laboratory samples or equipment, etc might conceivably add up to this sort of weight.

Still, if asked to come up with the best quality solution for a full extension drawer to deal with this type of challenge, I probably wouldn't recommend a traditional hand crafted drawer with slips, runners and kickers. I'd want to go for a better solution, probably something along the lines of a 'lesser quality' plywood (or perhaps steel) box and top quality full extension drawer slides. Slainte.

 

[jhwbigley]

jhwbigley,
I`m not too sure what point you are trying to make with your pictures, I think you just proved my point!

Mark White

I'm sorry, but if you knew what the inspiration for this cabinet was (plainly obvious to most i hope), you would understand why traditional drawers would not work with this design. How would you open it without handles?

Would it be more fitting to your taste with some brass handles on it?

JH

 

[Jacob]

..... to carry exceptionally heavy loads of perhaps 60 or 80 kg-- plan chests or some sort of engineering or laboratory furniture might fit the bill. Would the traditional hand dovetailed drawer with slips sliding between runners and kickers be the best quality choice in that situation?

What I'm saying is that the traditional drawer may be 'best quality' but sometimes it's not the 'best choice' as such a drawer might fail rapidly......

A traditional drawer properly designed and made to carry heavy weights would not fail rapidly. Obviously it might be different from the light domestic stuff you seem to have in mind.
The same applies to modern drawers with runners.
And vice versa in both cases, if not properly designed etc.
Ancient or modern, there were/are ways of meeting performance standards and a cost imperative to not exceed them.

 

[tomatwark]

If you are a true professional and have only the client's interest at heart you tell them to shop at IKEA as there is no way you can compete. You could charge for this advice as a consultant at £250 per hour, but I guess they might not want to pay.
On the other hand you set about making what you want to make and hope that somebody might see your point and pay loadsamoney for it.

Jacob

I would love to make pieces on a whim and expect someone to just turn up and buy it as I suspect most professional makers would.

Back in the real world it does not happen that way that very often for most furniture makers, and we have to earn a living as best we can.

I guess that in your furniture making business you are one of the lucky few who manage this, but I have workshop costs to pay and a family to support.

I always give my customers the a choices in how something is made, and sometimes they go for the more expensive version and somtimes not.

Having been self employed for 17 years, I have never known the business to be as fickle as it is at the moment.

I am certainly not going to send a customer away, just because they want to spend a bit less money if I can make a profit buy doing it.

Tom

 

[Sgian Dubh]

A traditional drawer properly designed and made to carry heavy weights would not fail rapidly. Obviously it might be different from the light domestic stuff you seem to have in mind.

Thank you Jacob for merely reinforcing my point. I have said consistently throughout this thread that the finely hand crafted drawer is not always a sign of high quality furniture. A so-called 'lesser quality' drawer, eg, plywood, simple construction, plain, utilitarian, strong and best suited to the required function shows a good understanding of design principles, technology, construction, crafstmanship and, ultimately, professionalism in the field.

Even a less than average furniture maker should be able to make good and square solid wood cabinetry from scratch with all the internal parts, including runners and kickers, and then follow that up by making 'finely crafted' drawers with the dainty dovetails and slips and, finally, shooting them into the opening properly, etc. I don't really understand why people seem to get so hung up on the perceived high quality of the traditional delicately hand crafted drawer-- such drawers are not hard to make, they're just relatively time consuming compared to other drawer construction options. Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

....


Jacob

I would love to make pieces on a whim and expect someone to just turn up and buy it as I suspect most professional makers would.

Whims are no good - you may have to spend some time ( a lifetime even) getting your act together and get a few things wrong along the way. And people don't just turn up - you have to advertise, promote, communicate

... and we have to earn a living as best we can.

Maybe you should take your work more seriously and be a bit more committed. Jack of all trades etc :roll:

I guess that in your furniture making business you are one of the lucky few who manage this,

Not me squire! Furniture making is still in the early stages, amongst a number of other projects

....
I am certainly not going to send a customer away, just because they want to spend a bit less money if I can make a profit buy doing it.

Tom

I tell em to clear off e.g. when they ask me for hardwood or DG windows, or to cut corners. You have to set out your stall and be committed to it - "build your identity" etc. You don't expect to go into a nice restaurant and be able to ask for a Macburger, or get Sole veronique in a fish n chip shop. You decide what you are doing. You may decide to be Jack of all trades but it's not the only possible decision.

 

[moz]

....I guess that in your furniture making business you are one of the lucky few who manage this,

Not me squire! Furniture making is still in the early stages, amongst a number of other projects

An understandable error though, you must admit.

John

 

[tomatwark]

Jacob

I have been doing this alot of years and have a good idea of what I am doing, I have seen alot of people come and go in that time.

I do advertise, but most of my work comes through the best form of advetising which is word of mouth.

But what I was trying to get at, was there are only a limit number of customers who can afford to buy fine furniture and while I have my share, it is not going to to stop me making furniture and kitchens which may not be classed as fine furniture but are still good quality.

I turn a fair bit of work away, things I can't make a profit by doing and things such as windows which I do not want.

It is all well and good being a Jack of All Trades, but the down side is that you get the reputation for that, which is very hard to lose.

And remember the saying, Jack of All Trades Master of None.

Tom

 

[Jacob]

Jacob

I have been doing this alot of years and have a good idea of what I am doing, I have seen alot of people come and go in that time.

I do advertise, but most of my work comes through the best form of advetising which is word of mouth.

But what I was trying to get at, was there are only a limit number of customers who can afford to buy fine furniture and while I have my share, it is not going to to stop me making furniture and kitchens which may not be classed as fine furniture but are still good quality.

I turn a fair bit of work away, things I can't make a profit by doing and things such as windows which I do not want.

It is all well and good being a Jack of All Trades, but the down side is that you get the reputation for that, which is very hard to lose.

And remember the saying, Jack of All Trades Master of None.

Tom

Fair enough, but doing things on a whim and waiting for people to turn up isn't an option for anybody. Nearly all the well known names survive by teaching anyway.

 

[jimi43]

I'd just like to point out...my fish and chip shop sells sole veronique.... :mrgreen:

It ain't as cheap as chips though! :mrgreen:

Jim

 

[mark w]

jhwbigley,
Nope, don`t know what the inspiration for the cabinet was (ignorance can be bliss I`ve just discovered), yes you can buy openers for traditional drawers without handles and no brass handles would not improve it, a dust sheet over it maybe!

Mark White

 

[moz]

jhwbigley,
Nope, don`t know what the inspiration for the cabinet was (ignorance can be bliss I`ve just discovered), yes you can buy openers for traditional drawers without handles and no brass handles would not improve it, a dust sheet over it maybe!

Mark White

I'm sure I'm not the only one waiting eagerly for photos of an example of your high quality drawer making, sold and paid for.

John

 

[mark w]

moz,
I`m still waiting to sell one, but then I`m still a student. I can show you a picture of a table I made with dovetailed drawers, once I`ve worked out how to get it on here. It was one of the pieces chosen by Martin Lane to go into the student exhibition at the Court House Gallery. Martins assessments of student work is harsh, if you don`t like it when someone says they don`t like your work then perhaps you should not put it on display. I never thought about putting my own work on here, it seems to me people do it for a pat on the back, there is no criticism, everyone says yeah great mate.
I`ll do it though and take the feedback good and bad just as I did when Martin Lane assessed it.

Mark white

PS. Does selling an item make it better quality?
Another PS. Just looked at your website John, I really like the stuff you make, perhaps if I can`t upload my picture I could email it to you, your thoughts good and otherwise would be appreciated.

 

[moz]

Mark, that's fair enough but I always think criticism ought to be informative if it's worth saying.

A sold piece isn't of better quality but does reflect the realities of making a piece for a price and to a specific brief. If a piece of furniture is made as a sort of vanity publishing project, there is nothing wrong with that if you are not relying on it to provide an income. If you are trying to build a business, then I would say from experience that that in itself has to provide you with a lot of the satisfaction you will get from your work because you cannot always rely on the furniture to do so; because you are making the piece to the client's brief not your own. I remember one ex student visiting me when looking for work and looked in horror at my random orbital sander. Didn't I use a finely tuned cabinet scaper all the time? You have to smile. I always put my heart and soul into what I do but it's not always exactly the piece I wanted to make.

John

 

[condeesteso]

well done John. Nailed it. (I got bored on the rhetoric earlier, and hence went quiet.)

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Nope, don`t know what the inspiration for the cabinet was (ignorance can be bliss I`ve just discovered), Mark White

I'm guessing you were joking there Mark (perhaps in the form of ironic humour) when you said you didn't recognise that jh bigley's design was influenced by Piet Mondrian and De Stilj movement, considering you later said...

...I`m still a student

... which I'm also guessing refers to one of Bridgewater College's furniture courses that I suspect Martin Lane may have some involvement with.

I find it a little hard to believe that a student of furniture making and design, after even only a few months study, has never heard of Mondrian and De Stilj, hence my assumption that you were joking in some way. Slainte.