The end of the traditionally fitted drawer?

[greggy]

jacob, what i am saying is that if modern drawer slides were available he would have used them.

but i must agree there is nowt better than traditional drawers.

 

[mark w]

I`ve just completed level 2 City & Guilds furniture making at Bridgwater College, we are given a cabinet project in the first year, this has a door and drawer, and a table project in the second year, this has a drawer. The drawers in both are traditionally made and fitted as per Alan Peters, runners are not an option. The head of the furniture course is Steve Hopper, a former apprentice to Alan Peters.

Mark white

 

[Mr T]

Hi Mark

I would be interested to know if you were taught about metal drawer runners on other projects. I think it is important students are taught both approaches. They can then make an informed choice.

Chris

 

[tomatwark]

Hi Mark

I would be interested to know if you were taught about metal drawer runners on other projects. I think it is important students are taught both approaches. They can then make an informed choice.

Chris

Totally agree Chris, but they must be able to access good quality runners as, if they use cheap ones it will make them think that metal runners do not mean quality furniture, which is far from the case.

Tom

 

[mark w]

Chris & Tom,
No we have not been "taught" about runners and I`m glad. I am a kitchen fitter by trade, and I also make kitchens, kitchens are where metal drawer glides are at home, my knowledge of them is quite extensive. In my opinion they are a short cut, a cop out and no matter how you argue in their favour deep down we all know there is no place for them in fine furniture making (let the rebuke begin).
I am quite sure our tutors at Bridgwater college are aware of metal drawer runners and as far as I know they have no bias one way or the other, City and Guilds however clearly prefer a traditional drawer.

regards, Mark White

 

[Jake]

The insistence that wooden runners are somehow superior is just historicism for historicism's sake, combined with a certain (usually in both senses of the word) sense of misplaced craft snobbery. Back in the day, the wooden components were more sophisticated than a metal beater could come up with. These days the tables have turned. Get with it, stop being a stick in the mud - working in wood does not mean one has to deny progress. Sometimes the advantages of metal runners might not be necessary, or maybe the budget is too tight to spend on the classy ones - in which case fair enough, the wooden ones have their trad advantages.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

No we have not been "taught" about runners... deep down we all know there is no place for them in fine furniture making, Mark White

I have to admit Mark that I'm not aware of that. Over the years I seem to have developed a fairly open mind about quality and appropriateness in furniture design and manufacture when it comes to tools, techniques, materials, hardware and polishes, etc.

I used to think the old traditional ways were the only way in this game, particularly in the first ten years or so I worked in it, but after that I started to realise I was getting a bit fusty, old hat, and turning into a Grumpy Old B*****d long before my time, ha, ha. Slainte.

 

[tomatwark]

Mark

I am not saying that metal runners should be used in fine furniture , but I do think it is important that when people are doing furniture making courses they are taught how and where to use both.

You have learnt how to use metal runners, working in the kitchen industry, but alot of the students will not have had that experience and some of those people will go on to make things like kitchens and more modern designs which suit the use of metal runners.

I would never use metal runners on a traditionally made chest of drawers with hand dovetailed drawers, but will on a kitchen or a fitted bedroom etc.

Tom

 

[mark w]

Tom,
I agree with you, but to me kitchens are not fine furniture, metal runners in a kitchen are fine. Like you I don`t believe they should be used in a piece of furniture such as a chest of drawers.
Sgian Dubh,
What do you mean you have developed an open mind to quality and appropriateness? I`m going a bit off topic now, I recently went to the Furnish furniture exhibition at Bristol, it was billed as having the top makers in the area, quite a lot of the pieces on display were not of exhibition standard, one table in particular had its legs half lapped into the top and showing on the top surface. unfortunately the maker cut the housings to wide for the legs and saw fit to simply infill the gaps with some slices of wood which weren`t that well matched. Other makers clearly did not know how to apply an oil finish. Is this the sort of open mindedness you are referring to?
Jake,
A traditional well made and fitted drawer is better than metal runners, be them soft close or pop open or whatever, their is something very pleasing in opening and shutting this sort of drawer and even more pleasing to the craftsmen who has achieved such a fit, no slack no wobble or stiffness, just the whisper of wood against wood lubricated with paste wax. It`s not about snobbery or being a stick in the mud, it`s about quality.

Regards, Mark White

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Tom,
Sgian Dubh,
What do you mean you have developed an open mind to quality and appropriateness? Mark White

Mark, it's quite simple. You can, if you choose, put forward a reasoned argument that the slowest, most technically challenging, most time consuming techniques lead to the very best quality in craftsmanship. You then maybe have to inform the clients the end product is extremely expensive, and you find out from the clients they're not going to buy it because it's out of their price range.

The end result is you make nothing, therefore all this quality is theoretical only and cannot be physically demonstrated.

On the other hand you could offer to make something that is within the clients' budget and, whilst the finished item shows evidence of economical techniques and construction, the piece fulfils its function satisfactorily and the client bought it. This piece demonstrates your ability to work to the highest standards of professionalism by matching client expectations and budget to your ability to produce.

The unmade piece remains an untested virtual idea, and is therefore worth nothing at all to either the designer maker (because it's not in the portfolio) or the non-existent clients (because they didn't commission the item).

So, drawers put together out of plywood tongued and grooved at each corner, with a solid wood planted front, and mounted on steel slides might well be part of a well designed and constructed piece or range of furniture, eg, something functional, attractive, and affordable-- and sold to a willing client. A job professionally designed and executed, priced, ordered, delivered, and paid for. That's one example of high quality work; there are surely more examples that could be mooted of high quality work. Slainte.

 

[condeesteso]

Sorry Jake, sort of disagree. I agree to go with what is best. I'm sure that a big electric bandsaw (for example) would have been a revelation to the craftsmen working say 200 years ago, and they would have used it to rip, rough size etc. But a drawer construction is far more than just the runner. The better makers used to make one runner component sacrificial anyway, they knew their craft. But you simply cannot make a fine well-fitted drawer using runners. Only the front can fit, the rest cannot.
They absolutely have their place, but I think this thread started with the possible death of the traditional drawer - I think not. A bit like like mp3 v CD, the future can accommodate both. I hope it can, and let the runner prevail for volume production, but leave a space for the premium bespoke piece made with real pride.
And by the way, many traditional drawers have been tested (hundreds of years)... tell me how good these runners are in 2311 - just send me a letter in an envelope with a stamp on it

 

[Jacob]

....
On the other hand you could offer to make something that is within the clients' budget and, whilst the finished item shows evidence of economical techniques and construction, the piece fulfils its function satisfactorily and the client bought it. This piece demonstrates your ability to work to the highest standards of professionalism by matching client expectations and budget to your ability to produce.....

If you are a true professional and have only the client's interest at heart you tell them to shop at IKEA as there is no way you can compete. You could charge for this advice as a consultant at £250 per hour, but I guess they might not want to pay.
On the other hand you set about making what you want to make and hope that somebody might see your point and pay loadsamoney for it.

 

[mark w]

Sgian Dubh,
Your description, plywood drawers tongued and grooved is not high quality work, it is work made to a price, it may last, it may fulfill its function, that is what it is functional, but it is not high quality. It`s like comparing Chippendale furniture to Utility furniture, both have stood the test of time. If a customer were to ask you for a high quality piece of furniture and you made them plywood drawers not only are you fooling yourself you`re deceiving your customer.


Regards, Mark

 

[Sgian Dubh]

If you are a true professional and have only the client's interest at heart you tell them to shop at IKEA as there is no way you can compete.

Jacob, what if IKEA don't sell what the client either wants or needs, and only a custom made item will do? Slainte.

 

[adzeman]

I have followed this thread with great interest particularly as an old student at Leeds College when the public transport to it was by tram. I hasten to add not pulled by horses. Leeds had many first class furniture manufacturers in those days, many of the craftsmen coming from Eastern Europe as refugees earlier in the 20th century. I recall similar discussions to this thread. New tools (yankee screwdrivers, routers and the joys of the Norris Plane) New materials, glues, plywoods Formica and then wood rationing. Most of the factorys producing furniture were off North Street and there was a college here though I went to the workshops at Rosewood Road , now long gone. We were taught traditional methods but if any new material came up we would study its possibilities, benefits, methods. You had to becauseof the rationing, it was essential to survive. Metal drawer runners were a welcome innovation. There was one workshop visited on the outskirts of the City where the machines were powered originally by a water wheel. This was replaced by a steam engine and then when I visited an electric motor. Fine work was produced on this equipment and to my knowledge probably still is. Having a career change and coming back to woodworking in retirement as a hobby I am enjoying the new materials and methods of today. I had particular problems with MDF, a new way of thinking. It was with admiration through this Website I followed the projects of say Brad Naylor turning MDF into Gold (and other contributors) In another 50 years I am certain these threads will be continuing and there will still be craftsmen around.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Sgian Dubh,
Your description, plywood drawers tongued and grooved is not high quality work, it is work made to a price, it may last, it may fulfill its function, that is what it is functional, but it is not high quality. It`s like comparing Chippendale furniture to Utility furniture, both have stood the test of time. If a customer were to ask you for a high quality piece of furniture and you made them plywood drawers not only are you fooling yourself you`re deceiving your customer.
Regards, Mark

I didn't claim that plywood drawer boxes are of the highest quality, but I was hoping to suggest, as a point to ponder, that high quality professionalism might include drawers of that type.

If a customer asks for a high quality piece it's necessary to establish what a customer understands by that description. It's sometimes the case that the customer's perception of high quality is not the same as the maker's perception. I know how to make traditional drawers, and also know how much to charge for them. I'm also aware that not every customer can pay the price-- some can and some can't.

Another factor to consider is the use a drawer is to be put to. Let's say the customer requires drawers with full extension capabilities, that are opened and closed frequently and daily, and have to carry exceptionally heavy loads of perhaps 60 or 80 kg-- plan chests or some sort of engineering or laboratory furniture might fit the bill. Would the traditional hand dovetailed drawer with slips sliding between runners and kickers be the best quality choice in that situation?

What I'm saying is that the traditional drawer may be 'best quality' but sometimes it's not the 'best choice' as such a drawer might fail rapidly. On the other hand a 'lesser quality' drawer mounted on premium metal slides may be just the right choice for long term trouble free service and efficiency. In that circumstance perhaps the metal slide mounted 'lesser quality' drawer is actually the 'better quality' (or perhaps even 'best quality') option.

'Best quality' surely has to be judged on the circumstances, required function, and maybe other factors, and not on the simple premise that only the "traditional-drawer-is-always-best" criteria. Slainte.

 

[Jake]

. Only the front can fit, the rest cannot.

I am failing to care too much so far, but I also cannot picture how this is true.

They absolutely have their place, but I think this thread started with the possible death of the traditional drawer - I think not. A bit like like mp3 v CD, the future can accommodate both.

I agree. For the mid-market, wooden construction is probably ideal because really good metal runners are too expensive. Low end, there is no choice but to go for cheaper (in both purchase and more importantly labour) metal ones - and those are generally rather aesthetically (to all senses) rather dull. High end, I see a choice. There are some things which can only be achieved with metal runners and hinges (which appear to be accepted for no other reason than the fact that history has established the rationality of their use).

let the runner prevail for volume production, but leave a space for the premium bespoke piece made with real pride.

To me you are off into irrational emotion at that point. The premium bespoke piece could go either way to me. And the pride thing is just building your conclusion into the argument.

And by the way, many traditional drawers have been tested (hundreds of years)... tell me how good these runners are in 2311 - just send me a letter in an envelope with a stamp on it

People always pull that argument with buildings, but the crappy ones all fell down or were pulled down and that was the most of them. I (and many others) have mid-century pieces with, by modern (quality) standards, pretty rubbish runners and they are doing fine 50/60 odd years later.

 

[Jake]

Your description, plywood drawers tongued and grooved is not high quality work, it is work made to a price, it may last, it may fulfill its function, that is what it is functional, but it is not high quality.

Is it possible to make a high quality piece of furniture in a material other than solid wood?

Or to incorporate subsidiary materials as well as wood in high quality piece?

 

[jhwbigley]

Sgian Dubh,
Your description, plywood drawers tongued and grooved is not high quality work.
Regards, Mark

Well ok then.........

Tongued and grooved Birch Plywood drawer boxes with Formica bottoms on touch to open concealed hafele slides.....

sorry about the poor quality photographs, all I had to hand.

JH

 

[condeesteso]

"I think the making and fitting of a drawer teaches important lessons about attention to detail and accuracy. Is this the end of the traditionally fitted drawer!?"
That is where this started I think. And clearly I think those traditional skills do matter, and will continue to.
"Is it possible to make a high quality piece of furniture in a material other than solid wood?" Jake undermines his own argument by then referring to 'subsidiary' materials. Jake already knows the answer I suspect - see the work of Mark Fish, or before that Matthew Hilton. I don't believe you really dismiss a material other than wood as inferior. I don't.
The rest of your logic is falling in anyway - the crappy falls away, the best stays. Can you show me the future investment drawer runner please... just your view on that area of excellence??