The cost of a microwave on standby

[John Brown]

My wife once bought a microwave with electronic timer and loads of buttons and programs. She listened to my son in law and not me. The programs of course were never used and it was fiddly to set power and time. We now have a simple one, mechanical timer, easy to use, turn one dial for power and the other dial for time. If I want to know what time it is I look at the clock on the wall, or wristwatch, or tablet or phone, no need to look at a microwave.

I am not a technophobe, been using computers for over 50 years, I just cannot see the point of over complicating things for no reason.

Agreed.
I am not a technophobe either. I was "coding" in the 70s, when it was called "programming".

 

[John Brown]

You're confusing market penetration with standardisation. Both Betamax and VHS were standards. Just different. The market decided that VHS was better.

Even though, in reality, Betamax was the superior system.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes, it was just that VHS got the lion's share of the market first. The same could probably be said for Windows?

 

[Spectric]

The market decided that VHS was better.

It was not a question of which was better, it was whose marketing was able to push their standard past the finishing line first, Betamax was a better system. This happens a lot when the decisions are made by marketing and bean counters who tend to ignore the engineers. It is always said that engineers make lousy salesmen because they look at reality and facts, not opinions and marketing power.

 

[Spectric]

Windows is a good example, what about Internet explorer originally bundled with the Windows OS, Netscape was a better product and had the larger market share in the 1990's but lost out because Microsoft just included their browser with their OS. This did end up in the courts and they lost. But many a large corporation like Microsoft get so powerful they use their power to stiffle competition and gain market share, now the attention is with Apple so the heat is off for now.

 

[Sandyn]

The country voted to get rid of this type of “unnecessary“ EU red tape which is “drowning” us. It needs to go on the “bonfire”.

Unfortunately, it won't make much of a difference, possibly increase the red tape.
From the first of Jan 23, there will be a new requirement. Rather than CE marking, it will be UKCA for the internal market . This will be based on existing standards. If a company wishes to export, they will still have to meet the relevant standards for these countries, as well as the new UKCA requirements. Generally the standards are the same the world over, ie the same as used in the EU with 'country differences' . The UK Government have published a list of applicable standards for the new UKCA compliance. The list is more or less the standards we have been working to whilst a member of the EU. There will be changes which will make it easier for companies to supply to the GB market, as there was whilst in the EU, but one thing will not change is that it is the manufacturers responsibility to place safe products on the market and the way of doing that is to demonstrate they meet relevant standards, So things have changed, but everything is more or less the same as before. Nothing will be going on the bonfire, but new standards will be required. The new UKCA requirement will mean additional work for most large exporting companies. It also means the world producers will have to now meet UKCA, but not a huge change.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Surely the time has come for worldwide standards?

 

[Sandyn]

Surely the time has come for worldwide standards?

the standards are very similar all over the world, but countries like to have control of their own standards.

 

[Richard_C]

I'll chip in on a few of the comments.

First up, smart meters. Don't have one, yet, managed to stop EON landing me with a smets1. I used to have a variable rate quarterly paid by DD account but now they have unilaterally changed that to monthly and nag me for a reading every month. Accessing the meter will be a pain when the cucumbers are growing. We have a rubbish phone signal here which means most neighbours with smart meters have to send readings in manually anyway so I'm not decided. The infrastructure which gathers data and sends it to suppliers is run by Capita, a very good reason not to join in.

The idea of worldwide standards for things is interesting and the reason for not having them is often commercial. I worked in the gas meter industry back in the 70s. UK meter bodies were deep drawn mild steel and failed the wholly irrelevant abrade/corrode test that the USA required. Theirs were aluminium but failed our 30 minutes at 800 degrees integrity test ( by which time the solder on the pipes would be long gone). But, the export market was nicely divided up so we didn't compete anywhere, some countries adopted our standards some adopted theirs. A common standard would have led to price competition, and no manufacturer wants that...

The whole KwH thing is very important. A few years back I swapped out the many bulbs in our long living room (4 sets of 4, GU10) for leds, going from 16x50w to 16x5w.a no brainer because in winter they are on for many hours each day. Not so a spare bedroom, 100wbulb but only on a couple of hours a week so no incentive to change. But, as led prices come down and electricity goes up, that equation changes and I am moving to led in a lot more places. Almost 100% there.

Spare a thought though for people who have no spare cash in the weekly budget and can't shell out £3 each for led bulbs in their rented flat with savings only realised in several weeks time. One good government initiative might be led bulb vouchers for people on UC.

And finally a quick win. Up in the loft I have a TV signal amplifier, on 24/7, only 3w. I remembered that those who transmit had jacked up the digital TV signal strength a year or two back, so went up and turned it off. TV still works fine, so that's worth maybe half a bottle of wine a year.

The next thing is to get really really good with a bowl gouge so I can work faster on the lathe so I save some motor running time

 

[ian33a]

The whole KwH thing is very important. A few years back I swapped out the many bulbs in our long living room (4 sets of 4, GU10) for leds, going from 16x50w to 16x5w.a no brainer because in winter they are on for many hours each day. Not so a spare bedroom, 100wbulb but only on a couple of hours a week so no incentive to change. But, as led prices come down and electricity goes up, that equation changes and I am moving to led in a lot more places. Almost 100% there.

Our new place, if we ever get there, has a load of spotlights, which I think are halogen and almost as many incandescent bulbs everywhere else.

After moving in, job number one, or close to, will be to replace them with LED. It should help, minimally, to offset the cost of running the oil boiler.

It's amazing how cheap LED is now - that said, there's a load of rubbish out there and decent quality LED bulbs are not especially cheap.... but compared to electricity, cheap as chips!

 

[1steven]

Am I the only person without a microwave?

 

[Craig22]

I've already commented about my reticence to have a smart meter. Now we have LED lights throughout the house, and turn these off when not in use anyway. The loft is lagged and boarded.

So where, from our electricity consumption is 550W effective continuous 24/7 coming from (4680kWh/year)?.

And where does the 2.2kW effective 24/7 of gas consumption come from (18,800kWh/year)?

We need to get a grip on this, because our bills have shot up from £1300 per year to £2450 (84% increase). And in October will go up again. As recent (semi retired) pensioners, this is a major hit, and needs to be taken seriously.

Hence a smart meter. Due for installation on 9th May, And my own personal (and others) reticence, arguments to the contrary, and other methods of monitoring can go hang.

Craig

 

[Richard_C]

this is a major hit, and needs to be taken seriously.

Agree, and unless we make big changes to our way of life a lot of the answer will be in the sum of the small things.

I wonder now we can timeshift TV and films easily if we should get into the habit of early nights in winter and be active 07.00 to 22.00 rather than 08.00 to 24.00. 2 hours less lighting and heating needed. I guess if you live in the far north that makes little difference, I remember walks in Glencoe in December having to fit a 6 hour max slot.

We have no gas supply in the village. Last year we replaced a 35 year old increasingly unreliable boiler with a new one which should be more efficient. One change is in the control: formerly it had trvs but no room thermostat, so the pump ran all the time the timer was calling for heat. Now there is a room thermostat as well, took a bit of effort to get it all balanced but now the pump only runs for about 1/4 of the time. That must save some electricity particularly in winter when we need to heat the house for several hours a day. I did read a good piece by an American physicist/energy guru who said that pushing hot water round 1/2 inch pipes was silly, bigger pipes means less work for the pump but that's not something to retro fit.



I'm wondering about all sorts now. When we moved in 25 years ago there was, and still is, a motion sensing light in the drive. The bulb usage is minimal, but how much current does the motion sensing bit use 24/7? Anyone? Are newer ones different technology and more efficient?

Routers don't use much but again it's 24/7. When copper wire phones are switched off we will need routers on all the time.

Any other ideas, small loads but always or frequently on that we might overlook?

(The other way to stay warm is to listen to any government minister handing out trite advice on the radio. Makes your blood boil....)

 

[John Brown]

I've used PIR motion sensors that draw less than 50uA at 3.3V, but I expect the ones in outside lamps are not so frugal. Apart from anything else, the mains to low voltage conversation is probably inefficient.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

[QUOTE="Richard_C, post: 1573139, member: 31850"

Routers don't use much but again it's 24/7 ...

[/QUOTE]

Bleddy hell! How much woodwork do you do?

 

[nickds1]

I have replaced all 52 x 50W halogens (mostly MR11 with a few GU-10) with decent 5W LED GU-10s. Painful job - all 12V halogen transformers removed and all fittings changed to GU-10.

We have three-phase to the property, have a couple of outbuildings and use a ground source heat pump, so initially I wanted to see what the utility split &heat pump was doing.

As an engineer, I opted for the Emporia Vue2 system which is cheap and extraordinarily flexible - it handles three-phase pretty well however as it's new to the UK, it's setup is still fairly USA-centric. The architecture of the system though makes sense and the whole setup cost me about £200 if you include cabinets and the special "wide-mouthed" CTs (current transformers) that you need for clamp utility tails.

We use a lot of electricity - last year about 17,000kWh, so potentially we can save a lot of money. It's been a really interesting exercise - at the moment, we've saved about 40% of our usage. The house is a large eco-House we built about 15 years ago, but the outbuildings (Office/Cottage/workshops/sauna!) are power-hungry.

I made a small 3-phase consumer unit to supply & contain the Vue2 - it connects via WiFi to the house system. The Vue2 has capability for monitoring up to 16 circuits (other than the utility feed, which are another 3) and in this setup up only using 6 currently. Utility monitoring includes phase, voltage & power factor.

I've gone after the "low hanging fruit" first - the halogens, PCs that really don't need to be on all the time, having the heat pump serviced and upgraded to the latest firmware etc. so that its CoP is the best it can be (it's the single biggest user of power).

There's a simple truism - the last 5% takes 90% of the effort... so do the obvious stuff first, including white goods (fridges/freezers etc.)

I also can't over-emphasize the importance of insulation to prevent energy loss. Sensible hot water temperatures, running stuff between 00:00 & 07:00 (if you have Economy 7), turning stuff off when not needed etc.

Just noticed that our two hot water/heating circulation pumps consume nearly 90W between them and there's a third one used by the GSHP for circulation in the underground loops.

Also, we have a Klargester septic tank has continuously rotating (24/7) disks in it, so about to add that to the monitoring list, but not too sure if there's anything we can do about it!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

... running stuff between 00:00 & 07:00 (if you have Economy 7) ...

If you have E7, don't presume this is so. Mine is set 12.30am - 7.30am GMT, which means its 1.30am - 8.30am in summer time, which suits me better. Different suppliers will set the meters differently then they rarely get changed when the supplier changes - I've changed mine four times bit the meter's not been altered.

 

[nickds1]

... running stuff between 00:00 & 07:00 (if you have Economy 7) ...

If you have E7, don't presume this is so. Mine is set 12.30am - 7.30am GMT, which means its 1.30am - 8.30am in summer time, which suits me better. Different suppliers will set the meters differently then they rarely get changed when the supplier changes - I've changed mine four times bit the meter's not been altered.

We have a separate clock for E7 that trips the main 3-phase meter between high & low rates - it's set explicitly to 00:00 - 07:00 GMT. You can see it in the photos I posted.

EDIT: Uh, no it's not visible - it's just off the top of the photo of the meter cupboard.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Does it get reset for summertime and back again for GMT?

Three of the four suppliers I've used since we we here have told me they've used different timescales, but no one has reset the clock. Octopus, that I'm with atm (thankfully, an 18 month fix) told me their night rate is (GMT) 11pm - 12am, then 1am - 7am ........... but no one's ever touched the clock, which is set as the installer set years ago. It's not a computer controlled meter.

 

[ian33a]

I have replaced all 52 x 50W halogens (mostly MR11 with a few GU-10) with decent 5W LED GU-10s. Painful job - all 12V halogen transformers removed and all fittings changed to GU-10.

We have three-phase to the property, have a couple of outbuildings and use a ground source heat pump, so initially I wanted to see what the utility split &heat pump was doing.

As an engineer, I opted for the Emporia Vue2 system which is cheap and extraordinarily flexible - it handles three-phase pretty well however as it's new to the UK, it's setup is still fairly USA-centric. The architecture of the system though makes sense and the whole setup cost me about £200 if you include cabinets and the special "wide-mouthed" CTs (current transformers) that you need for clamp utility tails.

We use a lot of electricity - last year about 17,000kWh, so potentially we can save a lot of money. It's been a really interesting exercise - at the moment, we've saved about 40% of our usage. The house is a large eco-House we built about 15 years ago, but the outbuildings (Office/Cottage/workshops/sauna!) are power-hungry.

I made a small 3-phase consumer unit to supply & contain the Vue2 - it connects via WiFi to the house system. The Vue2 has capability for monitoring up to 16 circuits (other than the utility feed, which are another 3) and in this setup up only using 6 currently. Utility monitoring includes phase, voltage & power factor.

I've gone after the "low hanging fruit" first - the halogens, PCs that really don't need to be on all the time, having the heat pump serviced and upgraded to the latest firmware etc. so that its CoP is the best it can be (it's the single biggest user of power).

There's a simple truism - the last 5% takes 90% of the effort... so do the obvious stuff first, including white goods (fridges/freezers etc.)

I also can't over-emphasize the importance of insulation to prevent energy loss. Sensible hot water temperatures, running stuff between 00:00 & 07:00 (if you have Economy 7), turning stuff off when not needed etc.

Just noticed that our two hot water/heating circulation pumps consume nearly 90W between them and there's a third one used by the GSHP for circulation in the underground loops.

Also, we have a Klargester septic tank has continuously rotating (24/7) disks in it, so about to add that to the monitoring list, but not too sure if there's anything we can do about it!

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That's an interesting piece of kit. I imagine it works well back at the distribution board and can pick up rings and direct apparatus which are consuming power. Presumably, because you need to connect it directly to the live wires and because the tails are short, it cant really monitor appliances directly connected to 13A outlets (unless nothing else is connected on the ring)?

I feel your pain with the changing of the halogens. I did about a dozen of these in our kitchen, it's hard on your arms and quite a dirty job. I wonder, assuming we ever move in, what I will find spotlight wise in our new place.