Tenon Saw Advice

[Petey83]

What are you going to buy when you tire of them?

see you are referring to "Chiselgate" again Phil..... i only tend to sell something that I have either decided I can live without and want the money towards something new or because I have the chance to "upgrade" a tool (subjective I know)

I can guarantee the Skelton saws will be going to the kids (when I get round to having some). Shane was really helpful and having discovered how much more enjoyable hand tool wood working it's more likely my Domino DF700 will be up for sale

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Good to hear that Shane is getting plenty of business, I've never seen one of his saws in the flesh but the pictures and reviews suggest they are top notch. I read your OP and you say you are not interested in second hand so feel free to ignore me, but the fact remains that if you use a saw it will regularly need sharpening. A saw is only as good as it's last sharpening. Doing a rip pattern saw is the easiest one to do and for the price of a couple of files (one saw file, one flat file) and a saw set and a £20 tenon saw from ebay you could both have a saw that will cut your long tenons, and develop the technique to maintain your more expensive saws.
Alternatively, like the chisels, North London Saws will do them for very little money (not sure how much as I do my own, but I'd be surprised if it was more than a tenner for sharpen and set).
All that said if I have to do tenons deeper than my saw by hand (which I often do), I split them. I do stop cuts about every inch or so, which is quick and easy because they don't need to be completely square in either direction (just be careful not to saw past your gauge lines), and split them away from the gauge lines, then pare to the gauge line with a chisel near the shoulder and do the rest with a bench plane till I just kiss the gauge lines. It's pretty quick and loads easier to get accurate than trying to saw to a line on a 5" or 6" tenon.
Once again, I am not saying don't buy a Skelton saw, I am glad to see a native craftsman doing well and I'm sure they are a nice thing to own but if what you want is to cut long tenons accurately a sharp £20 ebay saw, a sharp lidl chisel and a sharp £10 Stanley no.4 will do just fine.
Paddy

 

[ColeyS1]

Good to hear that Shane is getting plenty of business, I've never seen one of his saws in the flesh but the pictures and reviews suggest they are top notch. I read your OP and you say you are not interested in second hand so feel free to ignore me, but the fact remains that if you use a saw it will regularly need sharpening. A saw is only as good as it's last sharpening. Doing a rip pattern saw is the easiest one to do and for the price of a couple of files (one saw file, one flat file) and a saw set and a £20 tenon saw from ebay you could both have a saw that will cut your long tenons, and develop the technique to maintain your more expensive saws.
Alternatively, like the chisels, North London Saws will do them for very little money (not sure how much as I do my own, but I'd be surprised if it was more than a tenner for sharpen and set).
All that said if I have to do tenons deeper than my saw by hand (which I often do), I split them. I do stop cuts about every inch or so, which is quick and easy because they don't need to be completely square in either direction (just be careful not to saw past your gauge lines), and split them away from the gauge lines, then pare to the gauge line with a chisel near the shoulder and do the rest with a bench plane till I just kiss the gauge lines. It's pretty quick and loads easier to get accurate than trying to saw to a line on a 5" or 6" tenon.
Once again, I am not saying don't buy a Skelton saw, I am glad to see a native craftsman doing well and I'm sure they are a nice thing to own but if what you want is to cut long tenons accurately a sharp £20 ebay saw, a sharp lidl chisel and a sharp £10 Stanley no.4 will do just fine.
Paddy

I'm also a fan Paddy. I've got a second hand brass back disston tenon saw. 45 quid well spent [WINKING FACE]

Coley

 

[G S Haydon]

BB, DW, Andy are all dead right. Want a tenon saw buy a tenon saw http://www.mytoolshed.co.uk/p1090249/Fo ... K0wodyzQGU

In many ways they should be called "Tenon Shoulder Saw". Although they work fine on small tenons cheeks and will also do lots of other useful tasks such as dovetail work.

Well done for supporting Shane, he makes a great product. In addition to having a great arsenal of tools, it's amazing how many tools overlap and just how few tools you need to do great work. While you're waiting for Shane I can't recommend enough, cutting some practice joints, making some simple pieces with some basic tools you might have to hand. If you want to make things effectively, the time you have available to practice will be much more of an issue than than the exact tool for the job.

 

[Petey83]

BB, DW, Andy are all dead right. Want a tenon saw buy a tenon saw http://www.mytoolshed.co.uk/p1090249/Fo ... K0wodyzQGU

In many ways they should be called "Tenon Shoulder Saw". Although they work fine on small tenons cheeks and will also do lots of other useful tasks such as dovetail work.

Well done for supporting Shane, he makes a great product. In addition to having a great arsenal of tools, it's amazing how many tools overlap and just how few tools you need to do great work. While you're waiting for Shane I can't recommend enough, cutting some practice joints, making some simple pieces with some basic tools you might have to hand. If you want to make things effectively, the time you have available to practice will be much more of an issue than than the exact tool for the job.

It took a 15 min chat with Shane to know I wanted to buy a Saw from him, he really just wanted to talk about saws and what I wanted to do with it and giving examples of what others had bought rather than trying to take my money.

Still working out what I will buy for the particular task in hand but in regards to what I am planning to order from Shane it will be the rip and cross cut carcass saws and one of his Dovetail saws (not decided if that will be standard or on of the London long pattern yet). Just need to decide what wood I want for the handles now

 

[D_W]

BB, DW, Andy are all dead right. Want a tenon saw buy a tenon saw http://www.mytoolshed.co.uk/p1090249/Fo ... K0wodyzQGU

In many ways they should be called "Tenon Shoulder Saw". Although they work fine on small tenons cheeks and will also do lots of other useful tasks such as dovetail work.

Well done for supporting Shane, he makes a great product. In addition to having a great arsenal of tools, it's amazing how many tools overlap and just how few tools you need to do great work. While you're waiting for Shane I can't recommend enough, cutting some practice joints, making some simple pieces with some basic tools you might have to hand. If you want to make things effectively, the time you have available to practice will be much more of an issue than than the exact tool for the job.

It took a 15 min chat with Shane to know I wanted to buy a Saw from him, he really just wanted to talk about saws and what I wanted to do with it and giving examples of what others had bought rather than trying to take my money.

Still working out what I will buy for the particular task in hand but in regards to what I am planning to order from Shane it will be the rip and cross cut carcass saws and one of his Dovetail saws (not decided if that will be standard or on of the London long pattern yet). Just need to decide what wood I want for the handles now

Good to hear that he's one of the good guys. One thing about this hobby and its presence on the internet - bad dealers who are just used car salespeople hawking tools - they get called out pretty quickly and rely on sucking in beginners who haven't looked around much. Good ones tend to get a lot of referral traffic.

 

[ColeyS1]

BB, DW, Andy are all dead right. Want a tenon saw buy a tenon saw http://www.mytoolshed.co.uk/p1090249/Fo ... K0wodyzQGU

In many ways they should be called "Tenon Shoulder Saw". Although they work fine on small tenons cheeks and will also do lots of other useful tasks such as dovetail work.

Well done for supporting Shane, he makes a great product. In addition to having a great arsenal of tools, it's amazing how many tools overlap and just how few tools you need to do great work. While you're waiting for Shane I can't recommend enough, cutting some practice joints, making some simple pieces with some basic tools you might have to hand. If you want to make things effectively, the time you have available to practice will be much more of an issue than than the exact tool for the job.

Graham, that tenon saw you linked to is under £50, so cant be any good. Petey83's a high roller, who wipes his bum with 20 pound notes, so really needs to be buying (and selling) top notch, highest of the highest end tools :lol:
I'm beginning to think 'he likes shopping more than woodworking'
Apologies Petey83. Think of me as the annoying angel on your shoulder, trying to save you a few quid. You dont have to sell everything you buy, just to fund a new tool, if you buy tools that aren't as expensive.That said, his saws do look awesome. Can I have first dibs please [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH].
Have a good weekend.
Coley

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[lurker]

Well he isn't the first and won't be the last.
Its amusing to watch.
What a pity Karl Hotley has retired :lol:

 

[ColeyS1]

The only way I can describe it, is by comparing it to a car.
Ruled out second hand (fair enough ), so it's new. Wants something decent, so thats probably not a hardpoint which can be had for £15. Graham's perfectly good saw he linked to is £50 but he's gonna buy 3, £250+ saws instead.

£12 hardpoint saw = 12 k car

£50 resharpenable = very good 35k car

£250 mutts nuts saw= a fkin ferrari !

All he needed the car for, was to commute to the shops at the weekend- he's buying 3 ferrari's to do it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously wtf.
Petey83, if you don't want me to comment on your posts anymore i understand. Just mention it, and I'll do my best to steer clear of your threads.
Not trying to moan at you all the time, just trying to get you to enjoy woodworking without you having to sell a kidney to fund it
Coley



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[lurker]

Normal people have a cheap car when starting to drive and gradually progress.
Some go on to develop the skill to drive a ferrari and use it to its full potential.
rich kids get a ferrari for their first car and inevitably crash and burn.
Its amusing to watch.

My other hobbies are fly fishing and photograghy and its a common feature there too.
Folks trying to "buy" skills are called tackle tarts in fly fishing circles.
In photograghy its refered to as GAS (gear aquistion syndrome)

 

[ColeyS1]

Whats it called when woodworkers do it Lurker ?

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[memzey]

Give the guy a break. He's indulging in his hobby. If he can afford it what's the problem? He's got no kids so probably quite high disposable income. I can remember being in that position a few years back and spunked ludicrous sums of money on items that pleased me at the time but have left me with nothing to show for it. I'm still glad I did so as I had a blast. What was it George Best once said - "I spent all my money on birds, booze and cars and the rest I just wasted"? Fair enough if you ask me

 

[Petey83]

ColeyS1 - I find your comments unhelpful and annoying, if anything you seem to be mocking me just for having a few quid to spend. If i have the money to buy nice kit what concern is it of yours?? I am not really sure what's driving you... jealousy or a genuine desire to try and be helpful and you just fall short on the delivery of the advice and knowledge you wish to pass on.

For the record I am certainly not a high roller and do not use £20 notes to wipe my arse (I do like to pay a bit extra for the quilted 3 ply paper though in fairness). What I actually am is someone who works pretty hard every day, has a partner in a well paid job and currently no kids to support so as a result I have a bit of an opportunity to buy nice stuff.

Now I am not used to explaining myself to strangers but given buy starting this thread and others I have invited peoples comment I will give some explanation of my journey in woodworking.

A few years ago I got interested in woodworking, mainly because I work in IT service management and the normally the end product of my hard work is no one complaining and a nice power point presentation once a month (I do write a cracking power point though).
When I first started I eagerly went out and blew my bonus money on a whole host of tool (mainly power tools) that I thought would allow me to amazing things. I quickly learnt this was not the case and a lot of what I had bought was either just rubbish or not really fit for the work i wanted to do. I proceed to attend a few evening classes and slowly started to develop some more skills and started replacing the tools I originally bought with items that were more suitable - this meant that a lot of the original stuff was either junked or sold.

All was fine for a while and I happy to be learning. The one issue I had now was I lived in a flat and had a small back yard with no direct access from the flat so setting up on a Saturday morning took an hour plus by the time i had unpacked the storage cupboard, carried everything round and got set up. I persevered with it as I enjoyed making simple things out of scaffold boards and ply / mdf and at the time we had started searching for a new house which meant more SPACE and maybe a WORKSHOP!!
Sadly the house we found fell through and market forces meant the move would be delayed a year. Just after this happened I had just finished setting up one Saturday morning when the heavens opened up and it proceeded to rain (and continued raining for 4 hours). In a fit of utter childish rage I decided then and then that I hated woodwork and all my tools would be sold (and most were - this was the only time I have ever done it en-mass)
For a time i was happy living a simpler life nice meals out and nice shoes with a bit of shooting at the weekend ( my other hobby) but i started to realize I really missed woodwork and was still watching videos and reading books on woodwork. SOOOO I decided to get back into it after a year or so away, a new house was on the horizon again and I was feeling good. My previous experiences had taught me that I (as in worked for me, don't care what worked for others) derived more confidence from having better tools. A £99 skill saw will do 99% of what a Festool TS55 will do given time and set up but it takes longer and more importantly to ME it introduces an doubt. Simply put having better tools I realized gave me more confidence in what I was doing thus i think it made me a better wood worker. I will freely admit I got carried away as many do with Festool kit.... some bits i bought i later regretted and sold on or just found I did not really use and sold on because the money would be better spent on something i would use (DF500 money helped pay for my planner thicknesser which i hse way more plus I still have a DF700 and seneca adapter now so why leave the DF500 unused when someone else can benefit from it)

Now I have a nice new house with a nice double length garage that I am slowly converting to be a workshop I have the opportunity to try more and this has led to my desire to do more with hand tools. Now as I still have some disposable income (a lot less than the heady days of living in a flat and buying £500 shoes) I have decided to upgrade (in my mind) the few hand tools I had as well as investing in more new tools. This has meant that I have sold on some tools I already had that have not seen a lot of use as they were bought early on and I ended up doing most my work with MDF and power tools.
What I have learnt over the years is I really do prefer to buy the absolute best I can afford even if the real world gains are only 5% functional with the rest being in my head - ITS WHAT WORKS FOR ME!!

Tools I regret buying - Festool Carvex and Festool PDC, both great at what they are really intended for but both not right for me and were only really bought because i had drunk the koolaide as our American friends would say.

Tools I regrets selling - my first Festool TS55 and the vintage Stanley No7 I had.

Everything else has served its purpose in my eyes.

In regards to second hand - I have no objection to second hand, in fact i have already started going to boot sales and looking around for bits. My preference for new tool is because I am still developing and they give me confidence. I am am also just starting to learn the skills to maintain these tools long term and as such want something that does not require a lot of initial work to get going. I like high end tools as mentally they make me raise my game - that my mental issue and its cheaper to just buy the tool than to get therapy to get me over that.

I am happy with my life so I am unsure why you feel the need to try and make it unhappy....

 

[ColeyS1]

Fair do's Petey. I'll keep my thoughts to myself now. Woodworkings an awesome hobby, very rewarding, enjoy.
Cheers
Coley

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[Sheffield Tony]

Many older texts shows large tenons being cut with backless saws.


BugBear

Quite so!




Make sure you buy the required clothing as well, and if you shave, stop.

I used a similar method when I made our front door. Except I only had a workmate then, so there was a lot of wobble. The coarser teeth of a handsaw suit the thickness of the cut better, and don't get so chocked up with sawdust.

I have the apron, and at one time had almost the beard. Went backpacking round Turkey for three weeks, carrying the bare minimum so no razor, and came back with a beard. You wouldn't want to do that these days :lol:

 

[whiskywill]

I'm also a fan Paddy. I've got a second hand brass back disston tenon saw. 45 quid well spent [WINKING FACE]

Coley

I've also got a brass backed Disston tenon saw. £4 in a boot sale. :lol:

 

[HappyHacker]

Petey83 - If owning and using good tools puts a smile on your face and you can afford them: keep on doing it. I saw and tried the Skelton saws at a show and they are good, I am envious

As someone who has used cheap tools for many years I was never sure if my incompetence was the tools or me, now I can afford decent tools, many of them second hand, I have found it is a combination of the two. But I can improve on my skills and enjoy doing so while using tools that have poor functionality/performance makes life difficult.

I used to look at Festool track saws, in the days before cheap alternatives, and say I will never pay that for a saw, when I eventually saw the light and bought a TS55 I realised how easy things could be with properly designed tools and I have never looked back.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I was refraining from comment, given the reception my thoughts on the chisel thread received. However - what the heck.

It's great that you're supporting Shane Skelton. He makes some truly superb saws if the photos and reviews are even half accurate. However, they won't appreciate unskilled use, so while you're waiting for your name to come to the top of the queue, buy a reasonable hardpoint handsaw and backsaw, and some wood, and develop the knack of sawing straight and square. You'll appreciate the time and effort to do that when you first use the Skeltons. By way of a bonus, the hardpoints will also still be there to use if later on you meet a nasty piece of chipboard you'd rather not show to the Skeltons.

It's always good to have a few second string or 'beater' tools to hand - and using them to practice skills like sharpening and working close to a line is a pragmatic approach to confidence building, to save possible damage inflicted on 'nice' tools whilst building basic skill levels; and even the most accomplished craftsmen think twice about taking their best tools out to site.

 

[AndyT]

That's excellent advice from CC.

In my experience, hardpoint saws can be impressively sharp - and in all woodworking, an important thing to learn is what tools feel like when they are properly sharp. (I'm only talking about decent branded saws from Bahco or Stanley mind - I expect the really cheap ones are poor value.)

 

[TFrench]

Pete - fair play to you for buying what you want. I'm in a similar position (decent income, no kids) and I could buy tools all day! (just pushed the button on a dewalt tracksaw!)