tenon or dovetail saw

[bobbybirds]

I have to agree with Rob... Not that one "needs" a new, premium tool to be able to learn a task, but in that it definitely can help decrease the frustration and improve the learning curve when one has tools that function properly right from the get go. I know when I started cutting dovetails, after I stepped up and bought quality equipment I did notice a very real difference in my ability to cut well right out of the gate. In a strange way I think it also helped my focus as in my head I knew I couldn't sit there and blame my tools when things were not working, which forced me to evaluate what "I" was doing wrong and make the necessary changes.

Also one of the benefits of starting with a new, proper functioning quality tool is that you know what a tool is supposed to feel like and how it functions, so later if you have a preference for refurbing old/vintage tools, you have a good base line to use when fixing up that diamond in the rough...

All that being said, there are most definitely some really great vintage tools on the market and if the budget dictates that, so be it, but a beginner will have a much harder time trying to weed through the duds to get to the diamonds, so if the budget allows for it, why not start with something you know is good, and add vintage options from there if so desired?

 

[MickCheese]

Isn't it interesting the differing views!

I cannot help but wonder if Jacob just plays devil advocate to make the thread more interesting or if he actually believes everything he says. Sometimes I fear he is like the naughty boy every school had, they had a reputation to uphold and rose to the occasion without fail.

I have found this thread an interesting read and if you take the wheat from the chaff you can extract a lot of very useful information that will help you make an informed decision. I also helps me see the argument from the different angles.

I do feel, as a novice, that the limitations of a poor tool are easier overcome in the hands of a craftsman then those of a novice. So, for a novice it is surely better you start with the best you can justify / afford.

It also gives me less excuses and so I keep practising.

Mick

 

[JakeS]

I cannot help but wonder if Jacob just plays devil advocate to make the thread more interesting or if he actually believes everything he says. Sometimes I fear he is like the naughty boy every school had, they had a reputation to uphold and rose to the occasion without fail.

It's off-topic, but to be honest - maybe there's been some far worse incidents in the past that I've not seen in my short time on this forum so far - he strikes me as 50% "no-nonsense and no-patience" and 50% just incapable of ignoring the baiting he gets from half the rest of the forum...

 

[Jacob]

Whats the point in paying 10 or more times as much for a modern but inferior saw?

Dunno. You tell us, you bought an Atkinson Walker one a while back.

Andy

It was an mistake.

 

[Jacob]

I...... So, for a novice it is surely better you start with the best you can justify / afford.

.....

It's best to start. Period (UK "full stop"). Everything else is details.
If you have doubts about the junior hacksaw for DTs just have a go. Small DTs that is, as per perhaps max 10mm thick drawer sides. Normal 32tpi metal blade. I doubt the wood cutting alternative would be as good, but I haven't tried it.

 

[Jacob]

...
I cannot help but wonder if Jacob just plays devil advocate

Not really. I started taking more interest in hand tools a few years back but I found quite difficult to extract reliable info from a backdrop of relentless promotion of expensive tools and the gleeful squeakings of the gullible fan base. So I am now very sceptical of quite a lot, and have been trying things out for myself. Hence the Atkinson Walker saw (nasty, expensive, blunt, a mistake) and the latest ebay S&J (very nice, dirt cheap and surprisingly sharp).
The S&J is similar quality to my best Sanderson & Kayser 1982 vintage, but has a better shape (handle) and finish, which suggests it is a lot earlier. 50s?

PS TBH I am much more interested in the woodwork. The tool you happen to pick up is not that important as long as it is sharp (unless it's a hammer!). The quality of the steel is just a detail too. Lose an edge quickly: sharpen quickly, or vice versa, a simple trade off

 

[Paul Chapman]

TBH I am much more interested in the woodwork.

I'm surprised that you have time to do any, given that you seem to spend most of your time on here.......

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[bugbear]

Hence the Atkinson Walker saw (nasty, expensive, blunt, a mistake)

You keep telling us the sharpness of a saw as purchased doesn't matter, since you sharpen them yourself, or will have to after a few months of use.

If the AW is blunt, I guess it's your fault, not theirs.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Hence the Atkinson Walker saw (nasty, expensive, blunt, a mistake)

You keep telling us the sharpness of a saw as purchased doesn't matter, since you sharpen them yourself, or will have to after a few months of use.

I don't "tell" you or anybody else, I just say what I think, in a normal discursive way.

Yes I did say the above but I think in today's market they should be sharpened, especially as the competitors have made this a major selling point (outa da box, hard edge, etc). It now seems a bit stupid to be sending out blunt saws.

 

[Jacob]

TBH I am much more interested in the woodwork.

I'm surprised that you have time to do any, given that you seem to spend most of your time on here.......

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Another gem of wit and wisdom! It's posts like this which make forums so lively and interesting!

 

[nanowire]

I definitely think Jacob (and others of the same mind like e.g. Paul Sellers) have a point when noting that when, as a novice, looking for info about using hand tools it is easy to get the impression that you actually need the most expensive and complicated stuff available. There message is definitely not in majority and it's not like they make any harm to the average woodworker...

That it is nice to work with top notch equipment, vintage or new, whether as a hobbyist or a professional, is beside that point. And that one of the reasons for it is actually self vindictive bias should anyone be able to agree upon.

 

[bugbear]

Hence the Atkinson Walker saw (nasty, expensive, blunt, a mistake)

You keep telling us the sharpness of a saw as purchased doesn't matter, since you sharpen them yourself, or will have to after a few months of use.

I don't "tell" you or anybody else, I just say what I think, in a normal discursive way.

Feeling sensitive, Grim?

Tell: [reporting verb] communicate information to someone in spoken or written words:

- Oxford Dictionaries

BugBear

 

[Modernist]

I love this exploration of the extremities of the English language. Unfortunately the tone of the word "tell" can only be surmised and the breadth of possibilities remains wide as a consequence.

 

[robcosman]

I definitely think Jacob (and others of the same mind like e.g. Paul Sellers) have a point when noting that when, as a novice, looking for info about using hand tools it is easy to get the impression that you actually need the most expensive and complicated stuff available. There message is definitely not in majority and it's not like they make any harm to the average woodworker...

That it is nice to work with top notch equipment, vintage or new, whether as a hobbyist or a professional, is beside that point. And that one of the reasons for it is actually self vindictive bias should anyone be able to agree upon.

Dont think "complicated" has to be part of this. I recommend LN chisels because they are comfortable, light, well shaped (bevelled edges not tops) and come ground flat. This is not "complicated"! The opposite is to get a clunky, poorly shaped and belly backed cheap chisel. The new woodworker will surely save money, but it will be spent on the next hobby after these frustrate him out of woodworking!
The point I make is to purchase once and save the agrivation. I am not talking to those who love tool restoration, I think that is close to being a seperate hobby.
cheers
Rob

 

[Jacob]

..... The opposite is to get a clunky, poorly shaped and belly backed cheap chisel.

Very few of them are that bad. I bought a set of these a bit back. They are ugly, the bevel edges are not "fine" but otherwise they are perfectly OK and ideal for a novice. If these would put him off woodwork then he's a non starter anyway and won't have wasted much money

The new woodworker will surely save money,

Certainly will! Could get a complete tool set together from what he would save by buying LN equivalents. Expensive LNs for a beginner is madness when you think of all the other stuff he most likely needs, not to mention the wood! In fact they never mention the wood it's all about the tools, which is to have priorities complete in reverse!

 

[bugbear]

..... The opposite is to get a clunky, poorly shaped and belly backed cheap chisel.

Very few of them are that bad. I bought a set of these a bit back. They are ugly, the bevel edges are not "fine" but otherwise they are perfectly OK and ideal for a novice. If these would put him off woodwork then he's a non starter anyway and won't have wasted much money

The new woodworker will surely save money,

Certainly will! Could get a complete tool set together from what he would save by buying LN equivalents. Expensive LNs for a beginner is madness when you think of all the other stuff he most likely needs, not to mention the wood! In fact they never mention the wood it's all about the tools, which is to have priorities complete in reverse!

Jacob - you might want to gently remind your self that Rob actually DOES teach beginners. Surely you of all people don't want to be in the position of an armchair theorist arguing with someone with practical knowledge...

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

.....Jacob - you might want to gently remind your self that Rob actually DOES teach beginners. Surely you of all people don't want to be in the position of an armchair theorist arguing with someone with practical knowledge...

BugBear

What on earth do you mean by "you of all people"?
I am not an armchair theorist. Strictly practical. I was a beginner too. A born again beginner as well. I have a good grasp of what this beginner needed. And am a fairly confident woodworker now. Have been doing it for 30 years (as woodworker only), and twenty years before that as designer/maker mostly wood, and carpenter and builder. Have taught a few too (as workshop assistants etc).
Would you like a photo of my current WIP?

 

[bobbybirds]

..... The opposite is to get a clunky, poorly shaped and belly backed cheap chisel.

Very few of them are that bad. I bought a set of these a bit back. They are ugly, the bevel edges are not "fine" but otherwise they are perfectly OK and ideal for a novice. If these would put him off woodwork then he's a non starter anyway and won't have wasted much money

The new woodworker will surely save money,

Certainly will! Could get a complete tool set together from what he would save by buying LN equivalents. Expensive LNs for a beginner is madness when you think of all the other stuff he most likely needs, not to mention the wood! In fact they never mention the wood it's all about the tools, which is to have priorities complete in reverse!

If a beginner is going to save himself money on anything, wood is exactly where it would be smarter. I practiced cutting dovetails in cheap pine and poplar long before I started making pieces out of much more expensive woods...

Rob definitely knows what it means to teach and train people with little or no experience, and the amount of people that have rolled through his classrooms give him a much larger test group to base his educated opinions on than most of us keyboard warriors will ever have...

Again, nobody is saying you can't do well with refurbished vintage tools, but to suggest that is the only and absolutely easiest and best way for a newbie to get into the hobby is a fallacy. If it falls within the purchasers immediate budget to buy premium new tools, I absolutely think that person will get a leg up on the learning curve.

 

[Jacob]

......If it falls within the purchasers immediate budget to buy premium new tools, I absolutely think that person will get a leg up on the learning curve.

To be realistic many people including myself would never even begin woodwork if they had to spend all their money on "premium" tools.
Many people complete a whole career without them!
Almost everybody gets started with whatever they can lay their hands on, however bad.
By all means treat yourself to LN chisels if thats what you want, but beginner or expert, they won't make any difference to your woodwork, if you have access to some ordinary tools and sharpening facilities.

 

[bobbybirds]

......By all means treat yourself to LN chisels if thats what you want, but beginner or expert, they won't make any difference to your woodwork, if you have access to some ordinary tools and sharpening facilities.

That is not necessarily true IMHO, but again your experiences may vary from my own and other peoples too... It's nice to have varying opinions and they are all valid, yours and mine included. There is definitely more than one way to skin a cat! :ho2