Taking my business forward. How and do I need to rethink?

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That is completely wrong Terry, I can see why you need to employ an accountant. :wink:

The calculations are pretty simple and it's nett profit after allowable expenses and deductions that is added to your earnings as income. There is also a threshold where you need to pay class 4 NICs on top of the mandatory class 2 contributions.
I retired a few months ago after 18 years as a sole trader and trust me, it ain't rocket science.

Bob
 
flanajb":8d3kma9z said:
Tail between legs. Have decided it's way too much ball ache to carry on with this. I might dabble, but on the side.

The copyright thing is just another nail in the coffin for me.

IT contracting at £500 / £600 a day seems like less of a hassle. Shame, as I enjoy being creative (copying) ;-)

Concrete clock making at - £200 per day or IT at + £500 per day.
Tough choice. :shock:
 
flanajb":1tnqywfa said:
IT contracting at £500 / £600 a day seems like less of a hassle. Shame, as I enjoy being creative (copying) ;-)

Probably more than you'd make in a week so calculate how many days you need to work to pay the bills and plenty time over to be creative.

You would still need to sort out your accounts / tax presumably as self employed if contracting and could run your concrete products as a separate business which would let you offset your expenses and costs. You can also claim a % of overhead working from home and could write off / down your tools and get a % of your vehicle costs as well.
 
flanajb":2vtt4smc said:
Tail between legs. Have decided it's way too much ball ache to carry on with this. I might dabble, but on the side.

The copyright thing is just another nail in the coffin for me.

IT contracting at £500 / £600 a day seems like less of a hassle. Shame, as I enjoy being creative (copying) ;-)

Seems like there must be a compromise in there. Can you not work 8 - 9 months of the year (I know a lot depends on contracts), and save enough to have 3 months off making clocks / designing / whatever? ?
 
Well you can't say you didn't try

:roll: :roll: :roll:
The Concrete Lab


30 December 2015 at 12:34 ·
.

At long last, our website is now live!

Not exactly a great time to launch on the 30th and its not been a week yet. You've done the work just needs a bit more. Re-design products and website and a bit of marketing. Next step is probably working on the bank balance though so part time consultancy for you, as Doctor Bob said 4 months will fly.

Must admit I wouldn't be pratting about with my idea if I thought I could earn that kind of money.
 
As already eluded too on here. If circumstances were different and money was not an issue then I'd still be tempted to get cracking. I'd rent a unit, buy the large 3 phase compressor that I need for spraying GFRC and branch into other areas. I'd also be tempted to purchase a cnc router too. All of this costs money and at present I don't feel comfortable shelling out on a wim.

If I can secure a contract then I can always run the two ventures through the same ltd company. An Accountant will be best placed to work out what's the best option.
 
Mr_P":3hl8dicg said:
Well you can't say you didn't try

:roll: :roll: :roll:
The Concrete Lab


30 December 2015 at 12:34 ·
.

At long last, our website is now live!

Not exactly a great time to launch on the 30th and its not been a week yet. You've done the work just needs a bit more. Re-design products and website and a bit of marketing. Next step is probably working on the bank balance though so part time consultancy for you, as Doctor Bob said 4 months will fly.

Must admit I wouldn't be pratting about with my idea if I thought I could earn that kind of money.

I agree that it is all a bit of a joke. Deep down I think I knew it was a pipe dream and unrealistic. I just didn't think too hard about it. As soon as New Year came and everyone went back to work I seemed to have a bit of a 'oh bugger' moment. This thread and all the replies just reinforced that conclusion.

I enjoy making stuff and being creative, but that's totally different to busting uour balls day in day out making creative items only to sell them for a few quid. No thanks.
 
https://oami.europa.eu/ohimportal/en/de ... pean-union

Looks like an unregistered design has 3 years of 'protection'. Registration can extend that for some time but I think enforcement of that on something only 'based' on the original would be pretty hard. Apple failed to protect the iphone design.
I did do a quick search in the design database for "Desk Lamp" with the designers name and didn't find anything.
 
This thread has been an interesting read, but has veered off into how to run a business. I think its main purpose has been to convince flanajb that there is, currently at least, no potential business here. The reason for that is that the numbers don't stack up. Assume that these £200 clocks sell direct to the public, and that the profit on each is £100 (the best case I'd say), then he'd need to make and sell 300 a year to achieve his £30k income target. That doesn't seem achievable to me, or him.

One thing I haven't seen discussed is the full range of the market, as this might help show if there is a way to make a viable business. As an example, I make ukuleles for fun, but I also play them so I know what they cost.

At the bottom end of the market a Chinese factory-made uke for £50-100 is perfectly playable and sounds OK. At £300-£600 you get a very nicely-made uke, from decent woods and with a fair amount of hand work involved, and paying more won't get you an appreciably better playing or sounding instrument. At this level you can get a plain instrument from a single craftsman as well. From £1k to £5k you're getting beautiful woods, individual craftsmanship and a high level of decoration.

If I persuade myself that my ukes might sell in that £300-£600 range I can see that I'd need to make and sell between 2 and 4 a week to achieve £30k. Making them by hand, as I do, takes about 40 hours. There aren't enough hours!

So if I wanted to give up the day job I'd need to take one of two routes (assuming I could sell all I made, which is an unlikely assumption!):

1. Change my production methods (standardise designs, plenty of jigs, more power tools) to achieve the numbers needed at the current price level, or

2. Achieve a high enough price so I can carry on building in the way I want. I could make maybe 40 instruments a year (allowing time for marketing, bookkeeping, website building etc), so I'd have to sell each one for around £1,500 assuming a 50% margin. But that puts me into the custom builder market, which requires decoration etc, so I probably need double the build time and thus to produce 20 instruments at £3k.

These are just back of the envelope numbers, but they show me that what I currently do for fun is not viable as a business. There are two potentially viable models, if I can sell my output, and each requires a different approach. If I chose number 2 I'd clearly need to spend some time building at this new level and establishing a reputation for doing so which would enable me to sell that those prices.

Back to flanajb, it's become clear that his equivalent of option 1 won't work. But, is there an equivalent of option 2, lamps and clocks selling for £1k or more? If so, that might be worth investing some time and effort into, while consulting part-time, but it would take a few years to achieve if it exists.
 
mind_the_goat":2ftotqbo said:
https://oami.europa.eu/ohimportal/en/designs-in-the-european-union

Looks like an unregistered design has 3 years of 'protection'. Registration can extend that for some time but I think enforcement of that on something only 'based' on the original would be pretty hard. Apple failed to protect the iphone design.
I did do a quick search in the design database for "Desk Lamp" with the designers name and didn't find anything.

This Uk Gov site says 10 years after first sale.

https://www.gov.uk/design-right

It does mention EU at 3 years.

Edit some hope here
Licence of right

You can allow someone else to use your design by selling or giving them ‘licence of right’.

In the final 5 years you must give a licence of right to anybody who asks.

You can ask IPO to help if you can’t reach an agreement on the terms of the licence.

Depends on how much for a license ??
 
flanajb":sziyimpb said:
Ideally, I do not want to have to return to being an IT programmer and in all honesty I am not sure I would even get a job. The industry has changed and I was in a job where I was valued for my experience of the system rather than my development skills.


flanajb":sziyimpb said:
IT contracting at £500 / £600 a day seems like less of a hassle. Shame, as I enjoy being creative (copying) ;-)


Is it that easy?
 
Inoffthered":2otejzag said:
1. Absolutely not true! A sole trader/partnership pays tax only on profits NOT on gross earnings. The reason limited companies are attractive vehicles to run a business (apart from the benefits of limited liability) is that corporate taxes are taxed at 20% whereas profits in the hands of a sole trader or partner are taxed in accordance with the personal bandings.

Profits for tax purposes start with the profit shown by the accounts and are then adjusted for disallowable items such as depreciation, entertaining which are added back to profits. Taxable profits are then reduced by any capital allowances/Investment allowances that may be be available.

As a sole trader expenses incurred in the performance of your business are allowable as a deduction from profits. Of course, any drawings taken by the sole trader/ partner (or personal , non business expenses paid by the business) are an appropriation of profits not a business expense. By contrast, wages and salaries paid by a limited company are an allowable deduction for tax purposes.


3.Again, I disagree. There is nothing to stop an individual charging a limited company (which is a separate legal entity) for the use of personal assets providing the income received appears on that individuals self assessment tax return. Providing the charge for hiring the assets is not excessive then HMRC would, imho, struggle to challenge it. A director/shareholder of a company is not compelled to make personal assets available to a limited company for the purpose of its business on a foc basis.

Selling the assets to a wife may raise an issue if HMRC deemed the transaction to be akin to running a trade in which case they may claim that any profit on the sale was taxable but this could probably be avoided if the tools were gifted to the wife.

On 1. maybe I was unclear, I have not been a sole trader so do not know the rules here, my comparison was intended to be a more general one comparing an employee under PAYE and a director owner of a limited company. My reason for making this point was that Flanajb said the alternative was 'a corporate job', so in comparing income frothese two routes I thought it worth highlighting.

On 3. of course you are right, my company pays for the use of office space in my house for example. However, what Flanajb proposed was to sell his tools to his wife and then for her to lease them to the company. I took the logic to be that this was being considered as she had earnings capacity below the higher rate tax band and so he wanted to transfer the lease income to her rather than taking it himself. I have no problem with the leasing of tools to the company, it is the added step of selling them to the wife before hand that I fear may be questionable.

Terry.
 
Lons":22vh4h0j said:
That is completely wrong Terry, I can see why you need to employ an accountant. :wink:

The calculations are pretty simple and it's nett profit after allowable expenses and deductions that is added to your earnings as income. There is also a threshold where you need to pay class 4 NICs on top of the mandatory class 2 contributions.
I retired a few months ago after 18 years as a sole trader and trust me, it ain't rocket science.

Bob

Bob

As I said above I have never been involved in sole trading, so I have nothing to offer on this topic, apologies if my post gave the impression this is what I was referring to rather than PAYE.

Whilst your accounts may have been straight forward enough for you to do I can assure you mine are not, that may be because my business is more complex than yours was or my accounting knowledge is less than yours :wink: . However, given my accountant's annual costs are less than a day's profit I don't consider it a big issue.

Terry.
 
doctor Bob":u512iuqr said:
flanajb":u512iuqr said:
Ideally, I do not want to have to return to being an IT programmer and in all honesty I am not sure I would even get a job. The industry has changed and I was in a job where I was valued for my experience of the system rather than my development skills.


flanajb":u512iuqr said:
IT contracting at £500 / £600 a day seems like less of a hassle. Shame, as I enjoy being creative (copying) ;-)


Is it that easy?

If I get my head down and back into my books then, yes it's very viable.
 
Mark-numbers":wrlakr4v said:
Can you make anything in Concrete? Ie worktops etc?
If you are asking me whether I can make concrete worktops. Then, I'd have to say that I am not really setup for making worktops.

If you are asking me whether you can make worktops out of concrete, then the answer is yes. Just Google Concrete Countertops. You'll find plenty of places making them.
 
Wizard9999":1xkhk7ly said:
As I said above I have never been involved in sole trading, so I have nothing to offer on this topic, apologies if my post gave the impression this is what I was referring to rather than PAYE.

Whilst your accounts may have been straight forward enough for you to do I can assure you mine are not, that may be because my business is more complex than yours was or my accounting knowledge is less than yours :wink: . However, given my accountant's annual costs are less than a day's profit I don't consider it a big issue.

Terry.

I wasn't trying to have a go at you Terry just responding to your statement as being wrong.
A sole trader is regarded as an individual for tax purposes and therefore his earnings as that individual consist of any salary / drawings from his business/s plus any nett profits or loss and as I said not difficult just time consuming.

I agree wholeheartedly that employing an accountant can easily more than repay itself but in my case with a good grasp and experience in I.T. and many years managing business for other people I chose to do it myself as I didn't find it a chore. I'm lucky enough to be comfortable with accounts and tax disciplines and my varied construction business was complex enough btw which at one stage with a second venture plus part time lecturer got a bit "busy" :lol: I didn't have a holiday for the first 10 years so I guess my family would say I was wrong but most of that was because I just wanted to do it!

In my case, the mortgage had been paid, kids left home and the missus working so I didn't need to make huge amounts while building the business which is a completely different scenario to the one flanajb faces.

regards
Bob
 
flanajb":1mcxo14n said:
I enjoy making stuff and being creative, but that's totally different to busting uour balls day in day out making creative items only to sell them for a few quid. No thanks.

Don't give up, just moderate your plans.
Trying to build a business from a zero base to £30k in a few months was always going to be a big ask and probably unachievable. If you enjoy making stuff then why not use your "day job" to pay the bills and look to develop your concrete business in slower time.

Without the pressure of having to sell something to pay the bills, any pitch you make to a potential buyer will be more relaxed. Make a range of samples and go and see an interior designer and show them your products and explain how you can personalise the products to suit their needs. See how they react and adapt your next pitch based on the feedback.

Spend a bit of time to give your website a look consistent with a premium product. There are many inexpensive ways of driving traffic to your website.

Think of a way of marketing your product to differentiate it from Chinese tat. If someone is buying a lamp on price alone they should not be your target market. Don't be defensive about your selling price just develop an explanation to justify it.

Don't be put off by the doom merchants that can think of a hundred reasons not to do something e.g. potential design problems etc . Unless you directly crib a unique design the chances of getting into a legal ruck are remote.

Don't kill your dream, still go for it but perhaps not in a s*** or bust way.
 
I was going to make a point that Concrete worktops and the likes of are now in vogue within the Restaurant trade and in many respects for kitchen surfaces.

I started my business 4 years ago, I started in the domestic domain and it didn't work for me, I now solely do commercial work and its going well..................If you could do concrete worktops I know for an absolute fact that there is a requirement for makers of such things.

The guys that I know who have started and stayed in the domestic market remortgaged their houses just to pay for marketing and set up.........It does require heavy investment.

On the other hand if you could go commercial its far cheaper and easier to make phone calls to interior designers etc to introduce yourself and products.

Just my 2 pennies worth.
 
Without wading through 8 pages of replies here's my few thoughts; the prices are too high for what they are in all fairness, though they are well made and finished with obviously good moulds made and used, with good processing techniques to remove air voids etc it's still just concrete, as has been said there seems no variation on the basic design compared to a plastic clock, and if put side by side with one, little to show it's actually concrete for those looking at it away from the website.

One of the biggest reasons why concrete items have become increasingly popular is because they are polished and because they are made from concrete with aggregate, have the stone component visible with all the variations of that with glass additions and all manner of other quirks that are visible, thus giving you a terrazo effect, while yours are just plain grey.

Now obviously having them polished will add cost and time, but it is doable on a home scale with the right items.

The clock faces themselves apart from the slightly raised sections have no obvious marker for the hours. Now I can understand that for some this is desirable for a "minimalist" effect, but for some customers especially those older people who would pay the price of such an item, poor eyesight in low light conditions is a consideration, while I know most people can tell the approximate time without them, adding things as markers in the mould isn't a difficult endeavor - semi precious stones, shells, small fossils like ammonites, glass hearts for the ladies - maybe with different coloured ones for the quarters would all both add interest and make it easier to see, all of which can be bought in bulk from ebay for very little money.

The desk lamp, while also very well made is just downright overpriced for all but the chelsea / knightbridge set, and I'm not saying that to be cheap, far from it - my personal family background is one of moderate wealth, but it is still just a desklamp, that no-one I know would pay for, and also having spent some time in a salvage / upcycled / repurposed furniture quirky items shop with designer prices, has taught me that some things, no matter how inventive or unique simply don't sell above a certain price point, regardless of the effort involved, because people simply do not care how long it took to make. I'm also a bit diasappointed that you have chosen to show the cord, although maybe considered a feature in red, it shouts out against the "minimalist" lines of the whole. If it were I I would make the arms in 2 halves with a channel for the cord routed out before gluing those 2 together, but that's just me. Instead of having a clunky (plastic - for £350 REALLY??) clicker maybe look into having a touch stud in the base for on and off?

I'm sure you have spent the time looking at the plethora of desk lamps available around the same price points as comparison, but a quick look myself has shown for the same pricer range you can buy beautiful antiques, old industrial ones or ones with more features.

I'm no expert but I'd imagine that many startups make barely more than minimum wage (if that) until established, it seems like you are expecting far more from this initial period than is warranted.

For the selling side of things I'd echo contacting boutiques and companies that deal in the refurbished antique / homecrafted items market. As has also been said a smaller margin of profit in the hand is far better than the much bigger forcasted one - something echoed by every single one of the dragons from dragons den. While many places like "not on the high street" and etsy have high priced items, what they don't show is volume of sales at that price point.

I'm really not trying to be negative but give you my honest thoughts to add to all the others, the more feedback you have the more you are informed.

oh, as an afterthought - as you have the moulds have you considered using casting resin with inclusions?
 
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