Table saw fence length

[Flynnwood]

Please discuss re kickback possibilities and UK/US differences of opinion on this matter?

I note the old UK Wadkins have a fence shorter than/or equal to, the rising teeth of the blade.

And that most modern mass produced saws come with a fence which extends to the length of the table, presumably for a 2nd reference point to establish some sort of (easier) alignment with the blade.

Which introduces other variables regarding quality.

My thoughts (without one to test on) is that Wadkin got it right by keeping the fence short, thereby eliminating the possibility of sideways pressure acting on the stock and causing kickback.

Am I wrong?

I'd appreciate any professional views. My apprenticeship was in another field (motor industry) so I'm trying to relate.

If anyone reading this has not seen a kickback (perhaps unlikely on here but one never knows):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

 

[Richard Findley]

When I was at college we were taught to set the fence roughly to the hook of the front tooth (that's the bit where it stops being tooth and becomes the body of the blade) and I have done this since. It makes me cringe seeing those long fences because I have experienced kickback due to someone else setting up a saw and it isn't much fun!

Richard

 

[sue denim]

I am with you on this one. I set the fence to the gullet of the tooth. I cannot see what service the fence offers after that point.

'Sue'

 

[PAC1]

I too was taught to set the fence to the Gullet of the saw. However for the last 9 years I have been using a saw with a full length fence without any issues. A few months ago I made a false fence that fits to the Gullet but I cannot say I use it religiously.

 

[nanscombe]

I'm not a table saw user but would imagine that if the fence was not set up correctly and the far end was slightly closer to the blade it would probably cause the wood to pinch and possibly kickback but isn't that one of the reasons for using a riving knife?

 

[Jacob]

Short fence. You want the cut off piece to be free of the fence at the point where the cut is completed. Otherwise there is the possibility of it being caught up and slung back. Perfectly possible to do it safely with a long fence but you do risk the sling back.

 

[G S Haydon]

Extend the fence at your peril. Yeah, sure you can "get away with it" most of the time, a bit like not wearing a seat belt, most of the time your fine, until that is you go flying through the windscreen. It only needs to happen once............

 

[AndyT]

On my cheap and noisy Axminster table saw the fence extends to the back of the table. But it does that so it can hook over the back edge and clamp down rigidly. If it didn't, and was only clamped at the front, it would wobble about dangerously when wood was pushed up against it.
I see it this way - as supplied, it's not really a fence at all, but an anchoring device on to which you can attach a fence of the correct length. It's pre-drilled so you can do this.

It would make a lot of sense if the manufacturers included 20p worth of wood, cut to the right length and screwed into place, to make this clear.

 

[mind_the_goat]

I recently used my table saw (cheap DIY shed job) to resaw some stock into thin planks, I was copying a technique from an American Youtube video.
I cut just over half depth, then flipped the stock over and cut through from the other side. To do this I had to remove the guard and riving knife, and as I read this forum a lot I was quite nervous of doing this. I decided to drill some holes in the fence and bolt a shorter fence to it to reduce the danger. As it happens I think my saw is so underpowered that it wouldn't be able to create a kick back as it doesn't go fast enough when sawing.

It did occur to me that I could have used a shorter riving knife, one that sits just below the height of the blade, does anyone use this when cutting groves? Is it a good idea ?

 

[nanscombe]

When doing grooves, I imagine a lot of people here might take a sharp intake of breath, mutter "Too risky" and just reach for their router instead.

 

[marcros]

As it happens I think my saw is so underpowered that it wouldn't be able to create a kick back as it doesn't go fast enough when sawing.

You would be surprised, so i wouldnt rely upon that as a feature

It did occur to me that I could have used a shorter riving knife, one that sits just below the height of the blade, does anyone use this when cutting groves? Is it a good idea ?

A shorter riving knife is a simple mod, and neccessry for cutting grooves on the saw. Also for deep ripping, and for some jigs.

The issue with shortening the riving knife is the guarding- the original guard likely fitted to the riving knife and so now wont fit. There are alternative methods though which are safe and do not rely on fixing to the riving knife.

 

[Steve Maskery]

The long fence with the hook over the back is made that way simply because the fence itself is so poor that it would not be rigid enough without the hook. The problem then is making sure that when you tighten it up, it stays parallel to the blade. I used to have one like that and it was hit and miss.

I made a fence that located only on the front rail. It was good and I've since improved it further and now it is as good as a Beismeyer at a fraction of the price. It's on one of my DVDs and I know that a couple of guys on here have made it up. It's rock solid.

Although it is the full length of the table, it is fixed only at the front and I use it only as a backbone for a short MDF fenceofr some description. I don't have a photo of either the fence or the short fence, unfortunately, but on the specific issue of why a short fence is safer FOR RIPPING TIMBER (as opposed to cutting sheet materials) I have a video on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7QXIN2X8-w

 

[Mike.C]

My saw which has a full length fence came with a shorter one which as Steve says is attached when you are ripping. Every saw I have owned has come with this second fence, which I always thought was normal.

Cheers

Mike

 

[Flynnwood]

Thank you all very much for the discussion/replies. It seems (to me) that there is definately a bias in the U.S. to use the long fence. That's based on the number of 'tutoring' videos I have watched on youtube.

Example (1 min 51 secs):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAIHCzCo90c

One of the Wadkin pics I alluded to:

@Andy "It would make a lot of sense if the manufacturers included 20p worth of wood, cut to the right length and screwed into place, to make this clear."

100% agree with that.

Thanks again to everyone that replied. I've been trying to think of an analogy to similar potential forces that could be allowed to happen inside an engine.

Which highlights the issue even more for me.

After 35 years in the motor industry, the closest I can think of is a broken conrod (extremely rare) which penetrates the engine block.

That's probably a poor analogy but does confirm (in a roundabout way); once the saw has done the cut, space is needed ... definately not any form of potential tension between the blade and fence.

 

[blackrodd]

well said!
This is two different operations from 1 compromise machine.
Use the shorter fence for ripping, set the end just beside the gullet of the saw blade,(or the "root" of the tooth)
On big machines the fence had a "lead" in towards the blade. This is to help keep the stock being cut in tight to the fence. aiding accuracy, but not enough to "bind"
The running or dimension saw has a long, or full fence, set parallel to the blade. For accurate cutting of sheet material etc.
Regards Rodders

 

[tool613]

I always get a kick out of these threads of the long fence vs the short fence. The short fence is a position not a style. it is also not wise to view the fence in isolation. The sliding rip plate fence with its high and low plate is only part of the story. To deal with reaction timber and kick back the Riving knife ,short fence/position and crown guard work in unison. HSE is clear on this.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

jack
English machines

 

[keithkarl2007]

In the joinery I worked in I cut sheet material and solid material on a large 8' panel saw. During my 13 years there I never experienced kickback and the fence was always extended the full length of the table. In our milling shed though we had a large robust saw similar to the photo above with the short fence. This was used only to rip material before being dimensioned on surfacers and thicknessers.

 

[blackrodd]

I always get a kick out of these threads of the long fence vs the short fence. The short fence is a position not a style. it is also not wise to view the fence in isolation. The sliding rip plate fence with its high and low plate is only part of the story. To deal with reaction timber and kick back the Riving knife ,short fence/position and crown guard work in unison. HSE is clear on this.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

jack
English machines

Exactly so, basic and standard set up as taught to any apprentice, in the mill/machine shop.
This does fall down when Joe public goes and buys a saw from a retail outlet and isn't cautious enough or doesn't read the directions.. regards Rodders

 

[tool613]

slider don't use a fence or we don't anyway. beside there not much reaction wood is sheet stock is there? Now if your not as lucky to work with select and better grade and are a pallet maker you just might find that lump of wadkin well suited.
mind you a kick back for it may end all hopes of expanding your family. :lol:


jack
English machines

In the joinery I worked in I cut sheet material and solid material on a large 8' panel saw. During my 13 years there I never experienced kickback and the fence was always extended the full length of the table. In our milling shed though we had a large robust saw similar to the photo above with the short fence. This was used only to rip material before being dimensioned on surfacers and thicknessers.

 

[Paddywack]

I have a fence that is almost the full length of the table and have set it about 1mm wider at the out feed end to allow for jamming and I have never had any problems with kickback or accuracy.