Sweeping up
- Thread starter Doug71
- Start date
Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:
doctor Bob
Established Member
- Joined
- 22 Jun 2011
- Messages
- 5,171
- Reaction score
- 1,881
Cost him a fortune fighting HSE.
I rang up to complain about my 2hr charge for 2 paragraphs of paper work. Got charged £60 for the phone call, proper mental.
They can only charge for their time if they find a fault, they will find something. Even if it's a broom!!
I rang up to complain about my 2hr charge for 2 paragraphs of paper work. Got charged £60 for the phone call, proper mental.
They can only charge for their time if they find a fault, they will find something. Even if it's a broom!!
I work as a Health and Safety Manager in a high risk chemical environment, and have extensive experience of working with the HSE. I also happen to enjoy in any spare time converting timber into various items and lots of dust.
The story in my opinion this is one of the "myths" surrounding health and safety and until you are in full possession of the facts the newspaper is sensationalising it for exactly the reason it started this thread, health and safety gone mad. I am sure there are some HSE inspectors who simply apply guidance without consideration but my experience is that they will only intervene when there is a serious risk of ill health.
We all who butcher wood know the risks of it, the gentleman who has been told not to sweep up will know this as well ( he can deny it all he likes, but he knows!!)and if it was significantly serious the HSE would have given him a prohibition notice, and stopped the job until suitable and sufficient controls were in place. What they appear to have done is take a pragmatic approach to a very serious issue. If he was a single man business they would not even look at him, they are trying to protect his workers from him and his complete denial.
All the HSE have done is applied COSHH (Control of Substances Hazardous to Health) legislation which puts a duty on employers to not put their employees at risk from the materials they are using and implement controls to reduce the residual risk it to ALARP (As low as reasonably practicable).
As for a brush technique, I agree that is a bit extreme.
The story in my opinion this is one of the "myths" surrounding health and safety and until you are in full possession of the facts the newspaper is sensationalising it for exactly the reason it started this thread, health and safety gone mad. I am sure there are some HSE inspectors who simply apply guidance without consideration but my experience is that they will only intervene when there is a serious risk of ill health.
We all who butcher wood know the risks of it, the gentleman who has been told not to sweep up will know this as well ( he can deny it all he likes, but he knows!!)and if it was significantly serious the HSE would have given him a prohibition notice, and stopped the job until suitable and sufficient controls were in place. What they appear to have done is take a pragmatic approach to a very serious issue. If he was a single man business they would not even look at him, they are trying to protect his workers from him and his complete denial.
All the HSE have done is applied COSHH (Control of Substances Hazardous to Health) legislation which puts a duty on employers to not put their employees at risk from the materials they are using and implement controls to reduce the residual risk it to ALARP (As low as reasonably practicable).
As for a brush technique, I agree that is a bit extreme.
woodbloke66
Established Member
lurker
Le dullard de la commune
Agree with Hugo it says he was “advised”.
That means exactly what it says
....... and even though we might not do it, we all know it’s good advice.
That means exactly what it says
....... and even though we might not do it, we all know it’s good advice.
RobinBHM
Established Member
I know somebody that joined a timber fence and gate manufacturer.
He had to have a 40min induction on how to use a broom before he was let loose with an actual broom.
Their solution was to dampen the floor first with a mist sprayer.
Annoying though it is stopping sweeping the floor, a broom does raise a fair amount of dust
In my joinery shop, the main machines all have an airline drop with an air blower attached. Its works great, at the end of each job the machine is blown down, whilst the extraction is running.
HSE didnt like it, they said it creates aerosols of dust -which is a fair point, but an air blower is the only quick way to blow dust from all the nooks and cranies of a machine.
He had to have a 40min induction on how to use a broom before he was let loose with an actual broom.
Their solution was to dampen the floor first with a mist sprayer.
Annoying though it is stopping sweeping the floor, a broom does raise a fair amount of dust
In my joinery shop, the main machines all have an airline drop with an air blower attached. Its works great, at the end of each job the machine is blown down, whilst the extraction is running.
HSE didnt like it, they said it creates aerosols of dust -which is a fair point, but an air blower is the only quick way to blow dust from all the nooks and cranies of a machine.
AJB Temple
Finely figured
I think this guy should have kept quiet. We all use brooms and brushes and we all know that they do raise dust. I mainly use a vacuum. I expect most people who do a lot of wood work use various forms of dust extraction. It's common sense and not worth arguing about. I have asthma and so am well aware of the benefits of keeping dust down. He needs to look after his workers.
novocaine
Established Member
Normally the HSE would issue an improvement notice, most likely not just related to health implications (although it will have been mentioned) but more likely DSEAR (Dangerous Substances Explosive Atmospheres Regulations) as none of his aging machines will be ATEX or IP rated and those that are, are unlikely to have been maintained as such.
This is something the HSE are concerned with right now, what with a number of fairly large bangs in dusty work areas the worst most recent being Bosley wood flour mill in 2015. What the notice most likely requests is that he assess the risk of his activities on site and reduce that to a level considered as ALARP both in terms of health and explosion/fire exposure.
If he can't provide prove that what he is doing is ALARP they may issue that improvement notice as said above.
I appreciate this may seem daft to some, but we have to place the same burden of care on every employee no matter the size, would you feel the same about a wood fire power station not taking the same levels of control to reduce it's risk?
This is something the HSE are concerned with right now, what with a number of fairly large bangs in dusty work areas the worst most recent being Bosley wood flour mill in 2015. What the notice most likely requests is that he assess the risk of his activities on site and reduce that to a level considered as ALARP both in terms of health and explosion/fire exposure.
If he can't provide prove that what he is doing is ALARP they may issue that improvement notice as said above.
I appreciate this may seem daft to some, but we have to place the same burden of care on every employee no matter the size, would you feel the same about a wood fire power station not taking the same levels of control to reduce it's risk?
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
My 2d's-worth:
If he's sweeping up in his own workshop, and not exposing anyone else to avoidable risk, then he should be free to do what he likes.
If he has employees, or other people working alongside him, he has a duty of care to them, and should make sure they are exposed to as low a risk as is reasonably practicable (I assume this is the reference to ALARP above). Respiratory disease can take a long time to become evident (20-30+ years for silicosis/farmers lung/asbestosis/etc.) and is no fun if/when it does.
I think that if there is regularly a lot of sweeping up to do in his shop, then it raises the question as to how good his extraction is - the obvious thing should be to collect as much as possible at source!
I remember reading Paul Sellers' recollection as a young apprentice, being the one who got the sweeping up to do - by rights it should be the oldest not the youngest!
Cheers, W2S
If he's sweeping up in his own workshop, and not exposing anyone else to avoidable risk, then he should be free to do what he likes.
If he has employees, or other people working alongside him, he has a duty of care to them, and should make sure they are exposed to as low a risk as is reasonably practicable (I assume this is the reference to ALARP above). Respiratory disease can take a long time to become evident (20-30+ years for silicosis/farmers lung/asbestosis/etc.) and is no fun if/when it does.
I think that if there is regularly a lot of sweeping up to do in his shop, then it raises the question as to how good his extraction is - the obvious thing should be to collect as much as possible at source!
I remember reading Paul Sellers' recollection as a young apprentice, being the one who got the sweeping up to do - by rights it should be the oldest not the youngest!
Cheers, W2S
I'm not an H&S expert, but I have read plenty of information about the hazards of dust in the workplace, in discussions on here. Yet again I'm heartened by the level of knowledge and good sense among forum members, who can see beyond a misleading, clickbait headline in a publication famous for its partisan stance on so very many matters.
lurker
Le dullard de la commune
doctor Bob":2cm7ba1s said:
Bob,
Up until about 4 years ago all advice was free, but then the government (specifically Chris Grayling in one of his previous manifestations) told them to stop helping people.
Many Senior HSE inspectors left/ took early retirement in disgust (saying they were not in H&S as a money making enterprise).
Experts told the minister this was short sighted and would, in the long term, cost the taxpayer more money. But whenever has this walking disaster ever heeded experts.
doctor Bob
Established Member
- Joined
- 22 Jun 2011
- Messages
- 5,171
- Reaction score
- 1,881
lurker":y4ggl8r1 said:
Yes spot on, I've been assessed 3 times, first time was fair and free, second time was charged but fair, third time the guy spend 3 hrs trying to find something, which he did so he could charge for his time. £129/hr if I remember, 3 hrs in the workshop, 2 hrs to type equivelent to this paragraph, over £600, and another £60 for his 2mins on the phone when I rang to complain that a paragraph couldn't have taken 2 hrs.
Trevanion
Greatest Of All Time
I think the British Woodworking Federation has been pushing the whole "No more brooms" agenda for a while now. It's all well and good trying to suck it all up the extractor but the amount of stuff that ends up on the floor that you don't notice until you sweep up and start putting into a bin is ridiculous, loads of screws, nails, pieces of timber, tools, body parts, router cutters, documents, parts that have fallen off something, that thing you were looking for about 4 months ago but couldn't find etc etc... granted not all would be picked up by the extractor but a lot of the screws and such would.
The HSE charging such an extortionate amount for inspections is ridiculous, and as Bob said, they'll stay until they find something to justify charging you. I was offered a 50HP Cyclone tower by another joiner for pence (Literally around £100 for an 8m tall monster of a machine) not too long ago because the HSE condemned it because it leaked x amount of dust per hour into the fresh outdoor air, the dust leak wasn't even perceptible. So he ended up buying loads of secondhand 3+ bag extractors and put them inside the workshop, which in reality was worse for anyone inside because of A: the noise and B: the dust that leaked from the bags anyway. They'd have a field day up with us, luckily it's not easily located! :lol:
The HSE charging such an extortionate amount for inspections is ridiculous, and as Bob said, they'll stay until they find something to justify charging you. I was offered a 50HP Cyclone tower by another joiner for pence (Literally around £100 for an 8m tall monster of a machine) not too long ago because the HSE condemned it because it leaked x amount of dust per hour into the fresh outdoor air, the dust leak wasn't even perceptible. So he ended up buying loads of secondhand 3+ bag extractors and put them inside the workshop, which in reality was worse for anyone inside because of A: the noise and B: the dust that leaked from the bags anyway. They'd have a field day up with us, luckily it's not easily located! :lol:
powertools
Established Member
Personally I think that if there is enough fine dust on the floor that could cause health issues if swept up it should be remembered that all that fine that has settled on the floor was initially airborne dust and that is the issue that needs attention. (homer)
lurker":2ifqvsxe said:
Didn't know this Lurker, thanks for the heads up.
The ins and outs of the ridiculous broom contention aside, it's the self justification of the Health and Safety umbrella that I take issue with personally. I have no problem with the sensible decisions, far from it, it's the ridiculous ones that bother me professionally. The paper trail. My trade was at one time in the top 5 most dangerously fatal jobs in the UK. Woo! Gradually falls from height have been significantly reduced through training, awareness and legislation. Call me a cynic but it took corporate manslaughter to be implemented to really make a difference. Whoever came up with that idea should have a statue dedicated to them on Whitehall for actually saving lives. When someone passed a law saying the Bosses were responsible or they go to chokey. Everything changed overnight significantly. Who's have thought. :roll:
I used to'jump windows'. In the trade that means you would open a sash window, climb out, close it, balancing on the 3" window ledge you would hold on to the frames, clean the stamps (little windows) then lift the window open when it didn't get stuck, clamber back in, shut the sash and take a breath. You might be 300 feet up on occasion.
I also used to 'hop ledges'. So you might be on a hotel clean on an old red brick building round West London built in a certain style. Lots of ornate features like balconies. So, rather than knock on every door in the hotel, open the window, climb out, clean and climb in, major headache, common practice was to just climb/ jump between them. 2 floors up or 15. Walk round them holding on with your finger tips and sometimes your faith. Here's a tip. 90 % of your body weight is in your head. Be careful looking up. :wink:
You ever seen Matt Damon in Bourne Supremecy? From 3.24 exactly.
Not kidding. I watched Dawn Wall on Netflix about 3 weeks ago and realised I had managed to intimate all the major rock climbing holds without ever having been rock climbing. Literally, I learnt on the hop.
[youtube]1gNx5JOhVss[/youtube]
For years I did this. For money. I liked it too tbh. It made me feel alive. Strangely. But I was a young fella with big knackers then.
Nowadays, many years later the world has changed. Now I need to write RaMs and Permits and Name Tags and the Keys are signed out on electronic systems that text me at 6pm if I forget to take one back. It's safer, but my god its joyless. The office admins are in charge and don't they love it. :|
Chris
tomatwark
Established Member
When I had my own business I had an industrial vacuum for assisting with the cleaning up, but it is not the total solution.
We also used a soft bristle brush as well, used for the big bits.
Sweeping into an extactor system is a fire risk as if a piece of metal goes up the pipe there is a small chance it will spark and cause a fire.
Where I now work we only had a brush, but after a bit of gentle persuasion we are getting an industrial vacuum, hopefully it will turn up tomorrow.
With a big enough vacuum cleaner with good suction and a soft broom, it takes the same amount of time but you do have less dust in the air and also a lot cleaner workshop.
Blowing down with an airline just throws more dust into the air, vacuuming a machine creates less.
I wonder if the article in the paper has the usual bending the facts to make a good story.
We also used a soft bristle brush as well, used for the big bits.
Sweeping into an extactor system is a fire risk as if a piece of metal goes up the pipe there is a small chance it will spark and cause a fire.
Where I now work we only had a brush, but after a bit of gentle persuasion we are getting an industrial vacuum, hopefully it will turn up tomorrow.
With a big enough vacuum cleaner with good suction and a soft broom, it takes the same amount of time but you do have less dust in the air and also a lot cleaner workshop.
Blowing down with an airline just throws more dust into the air, vacuuming a machine creates less.
I wonder if the article in the paper has the usual bending the facts to make a good story.
thetyreman
Established Member
which one harms the planet more longterm? manual sweeping or an industrial vaccum? one of them doesn't even require power! it's a way of forcing us into industrialisation, I don't see the problem with sweeping, without evidence that it's damaging the health of his staff it's just speculation, actually sweeping by hand is a skill, you can do it in a way that doesn't bring much dust into the air.
wallace
Established Member
I worked for a pallet company for many years and they would do the annual dust testing in the winter months when it was raining. When I became a H&S guy I got them to do it in the summer. It was 3 times the maximum exposure limit. I got the HSE involved and all that came out of it was a supervisor would walk around with garden sprayer a couple of times a day. This was a huge company as well.
stuartpaul
Established Member
Bm101":2ftshi0s said:
Sorry Chris but that isn't quite right. Corporate manslaughter legislation doesn't have any impact on individuals. As the name suggests it's the corporate body that faces charges hence only fines likely.
Strangely enough the legislation to imprison individuals has been contained within the H&S act since the 70's although rarely used.
What corporate manslaughter law did was focus senior management on some of the tests used to prove said corporate liability and these included individual liabilities (consent, neglect or connivance used to be the phrase) which could in turn lead to personal liabilities.
I used to know chapter and verse but been out of the game for a while now.
