Strat neck faulty

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Jacob

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Intonation at 12th fret (harmonic compared to fretted) too far out to adjust which means either moving bridge back or neck longer with a bit of packing. Any suggestions? It's only a cheapo no-name copy but it'd be nice to get it spot on.
New strings so they not at fault and it's the same on all of them.
Packing to make it "hard tail" might help I suppose?
 
What's the action (height of strings off the fretboard) like?
Might need shim the neck pocket and try again.
 
Im a bit fuzzy on this, but try the 12th low e against 7th a ..... im pretty sure i read somewhere that the harmonic wasnt actually an accurate way to check intonation and by setting the strings using that method meant the high e would always be noticeably off.

If packing the bridge pushes the saddles up and back a bit, that may well do it..... you can test it pretty quickly with a softwood wedge
 
Just built a kit guitar, intonation was annoying to get right.

The advice I followed in the end was.
1: get the nut height set, 2: set the trussrod for the right relief, 3: set action ( within reason ) 4: adjust intonation at 12th fret.

I was struggling with it for ages, in the end my problem was partly that I was relying upon the guitar tuna app on my phone.
This is not good enough so the end I downloaded a better tuner ( strobing type ) this allowed me to get the 12th fret harmonic 1 octave up etc.
Turned out I was closer than I thought but the other tuner was giving a false positive of some kind.
I also had to reverse one or two saddles on the tune o matic bridge and the G is still pretty near its maximum travel.
Ours is a gibson 24.75 scale but principles should be the same.

You might try a different string gauge, might make up enough difference to bring it back into adjustment range.
Good luck

Ollie
 
If you wish to do it twice...
Should be easy to find the specs online, i.e string height at bridge,
recommended string post spacing's, their height, should they be bottomed out,
and also neck relief, whilst looking for a "ski ramp" at the neck/body transition
while you're at it, (a likely cause for fret buzz, and the lower the action the more prevalent)

Could just be a bum string either if the fretted notes are flat, but one could say less forgiving
in terms of masking the issue, depending on how bad it is.

Just for what it's worth, that's the deal for all cheap guitars,
just barely playable, so you'll buy a better one.
 
If you wish to do it twice...
Should be easy to find the specs online, ..
I've got the book - it's a Haynes Manual, but doesn't answer this one.
Just for what it's worth, that's the deal for all cheap guitars,
just barely playable, so you'll buy a better one.
I know. I swapped it for my very nice Fender Squier Strat which my grandson now has. His need is greater than mine and I'm hoping to join his band!
 
There are four steps to setting the intonation once you have the bridge in roughly the right place.

To do that, measure from the face of the nut to the centre of the 12th fret and double it. Your saddles need to be that distance from the nut plus a small amount (on a Strat, maybe as little as 1mm) to allow for compensation (as you press down on the string you stretch it and so change its pitch).

Each string requires a different amount of compensation, and so you should aim at having at least a 3mm window to move them back from that measurement. From memory a Strat bridge gives you 6mm or so of movement - if so, set the saddles fully forward, and then that point should be nut-12th x 2 distance from the nut.

Intonation setting is as follows:

1. Set the relief in the neck - this is the curve under string tension, and is the only thing the truss rod should be used for. Fully strung and in tune, then capo the strings at fret 1. With the guitar held in playing position, hold down the low E string at the fret nearest the body join and then measure the height between the top of a fret near the middle of that distance (7th?) and the bottom of the low E. For a Strat you are looking at .004 to .008 in inches (.004 is the thickness of a sheet of printing paper). If relief is too great, tighten the truss rod 1/4 turn and re-measure. Too little, loosen 1/4 turn. Tweak from there to suit your playing style (strummers need more relief, shredders need a pretty flat fretboard).

2. Once relief is set, adjust the depth of the nut slots. Hold each string down between frets 2 and 3 and check the space between that string and the top of fret 1. If you gently tap the string at fret 1 you can tell how big the gap is. Ideally you want no gap at all (but plus an invisible fraction, because lower is very bad!), but a hair above the fret is safer - you can take it down further later if it feels like it needs it. Nut slots must slope down towards the tuners so that the string's last point of contact is at the face of the nut. Ideally, the bottom of the slot is rounded to match the string's shape. If you screw this up you'll have to make a new nut! If you don't do it, the guitar will play out of tune on the lower frets.

3. Set your preferred action height, measured conventionally between the bottom of each string and the top of the 12th fret. Each player likes a different action. For an acoustic, 2.5mm at the low E reducing to 2 mm at the high E will suit an average player (a heavy strummer might want more, a delicate fingerstyle player less). For an electric I'd work with 2mm-1.5mm as a starting point, but try playing it and adjust for feel, Too low for your style and it will buzz like a wasp. If the frets are uneven it might buzz anyway (in that case, fix the frets).

4. Finally, set the saddle position for each string so that the note at the 12th is exactly an octave above the open string. An electronic tuner helps here, but the 12th fret harmonic (plus a good ear when you play the 12th note) gets you pretty close. At a guess, this might be nominal scale (nut-12th x 2) + 1mm for the high E and nominal scale + 2.5 mm for the low E. Tweak from there until it sounds sweet. Heavier string require more compensation than light.

This order of operations is important - if you start with the saddles and then change the action at the 12th, the saddles will be out, and so on.

Important note: this setup only works for the gauge of strings you use. If you swap to a different gauge you will probably need to reset relief and tweak the saddles (but the nut should still be OK).

Second note: old strings can intonate badly because they are dented and/or stretched in spots. You might use old strings to get it close, and then do final adjustment with new strings fitted.
 
There are four steps to setting the intonation once you have the bridge in roughly the right place.

To do that, measure from the face of the nut to the centre of the 12th fret and double it. Your saddles need to be that distance from the nut plus a small amount (on a Strat, maybe as little as 1mm) to allow for compensation (as you press down on the string you stretch it and so change its pitch).

Each string requires a different amount of compensation, and so you should aim at having at least a 3mm window to move them back from that measurement. From memory a Strat bridge gives you 6mm or so of movement - if so, set the saddles fully forward, and then that point should be nut-12th x 2 distance from the nut.

Intonation setting is as follows:

1. Set the relief in the neck - this is the curve under string tension, and is the only thing the truss rod should be used for. Fully strung and in tune, then capo the strings at fret 1. With the guitar held in playing position, hold down the low E string at the fret nearest the body join and then measure the height between the top of a fret near the middle of that distance (7th?) and the bottom of the low E. For a Strat you are looking at .004 to .008 in inches (.004 is the thickness of a sheet of printing paper). If relief is too great, tighten the truss rod 1/4 turn and re-measure. Too little, loosen 1/4 turn. Tweak from there to suit your playing style (strummers need more relief, shredders need a pretty flat fretboard).

2. Once relief is set, adjust the depth of the nut slots. Hold each string down between frets 2 and 3 and check the space between that string and the top of fret 1. If you gently tap the string at fret 1 you can tell how big the gap is. Ideally you want no gap at all (but plus an invisible fraction, because lower is very bad!), but a hair above the fret is safer - you can take it down further later if it feels like it needs it. Nut slots must slope down towards the tuners so that the string's last point of contact is at the face of the nut. Ideally, the bottom of the slot is rounded to match the string's shape. If you screw this up you'll have to make a new nut! If you don't do it, the guitar will play out of tune on the lower frets.

3. Set your preferred action height, measured conventionally between the bottom of each string and the top of the 12th fret. Each player likes a different action. For an acoustic, 2.5mm at the low E reducing to 2 mm at the high E will suit an average player (a heavy strummer might want more, a delicate fingerstyle player less). For an electric I'd work with 2mm-1.5mm as a starting point, but try playing it and adjust for feel, Too low for your style and it will buzz like a wasp. If the frets are uneven it might buzz anyway (in that case, fix the frets).

4. Finally, set the saddle position for each string so that the note at the 12th is exactly an octave above the open string. An electronic tuner helps here, but the 12th fret harmonic (plus a good ear when you play the 12th note) gets you pretty close. At a guess, this might be nominal scale (nut-12th x 2) + 1mm for the high E and nominal scale + 2.5 mm for the low E. Tweak from there until it sounds sweet. Heavier string require more compensation than light.

This order of operations is important - if you start with the saddles and then change the action at the 12th, the saddles will be out, and so on.

Important note: this setup only works for the gauge of strings you use. If you swap to a different gauge you will probably need to reset relief and tweak the saddles (but the nut should still be OK).

Second note: old strings can intonate badly because they are dented and/or stretched in spots. You might use old strings to get it close, and then do final adjustment with new strings fitted.
Thanks for that very thorough explanation.
My prob is there is no adjustment left to get the tuning right at the 12th, without moving either the bridge or the neck to lengthen the string.
I'm going to have a go at re positioning the neck with a bit of packing at the end.
 
Intonation at 12th fret (harmonic compared to fretted) too far out to adjust which means either moving bridge back or neck longer with a bit of packing. Any suggestions? It's only a cheapo no-name copy but it'd be nice to get it spot on.
New strings so they not at fault and it's the same on all of them.
Packing to make it "hard tail" might help I suppos
There are four steps to setting the intonation once you have the bridge in roughly the right place.

To do that, measure from the face of the nut to the centre of the 12th fret and double it. Your saddles need to be that distance from the nut plus a small amount (on a Strat, maybe as little as 1mm) to allow for compensation (as you press down on the string you stretch it and so change its pitch).

Each string requires a different amount of compensation, and so you should aim at having at least a 3mm window to move them back from that measurement. From memory a Strat bridge gives you 6mm or so of movement - if so, set the saddles fully forward, and then that point should be nut-12th x 2 distance from the nut.

Intonation setting is as follows:

1. Set the relief in the neck - this is the curve under string tension, and is the only thing the truss rod should be used for. Fully strung and in tune, then capo the strings at fret 1. With the guitar held in playing position, hold down the low E string at the fret nearest the body join and then measure the height between the top of a fret near the middle of that distance (7th?) and the bottom of the low E. For a Strat you are looking at .004 to .008 in inches (.004 is the thickness of a sheet of printing paper). If relief is too great, tighten the truss rod 1/4 turn and re-measure. Too little, loosen 1/4 turn. Tweak from there to suit your playing style (strummers need more relief, shredders need a pretty flat fretboard).

2. Once relief is set, adjust the depth of the nut slots. Hold each string down between frets 2 and 3 and check the space between that string and the top of fret 1. If you gently tap the string at fret 1 you can tell how big the gap is. Ideally you want no gap at all (but plus an invisible fraction, because lower is very bad!), but a hair above the fret is safer - you can take it down further later if it feels like it needs it. Nut slots must slope down towards the tuners so that the string's last point of contact is at the face of the nut. Ideally, the bottom of the slot is rounded to match the string's shape. If you screw this up you'll have to make a new nut! If you don't do it, the guitar will play out of tune on the lower frets.

3. Set your preferred action height, measured conventionally between the bottom of each string and the top of the 12th fret. Each player likes a different action. For an acoustic, 2.5mm at the low E reducing to 2 mm at the high E will suit an average player (a heavy strummer might want more, a delicate fingerstyle player less). For an electric I'd work with 2mm-1.5mm as a starting point, but try playing it and adjust for feel, Too low for your style and it will buzz like a wasp. If the frets are uneven it might buzz anyway (in that case, fix the frets).

4. Finally, set the saddle position for each string so that the note at the 12th is exactly an octave above the open string. An electronic tuner helps here, but the 12th fret harmonic (plus a good ear when you play the 12th note) gets you pretty close. At a guess, this might be nominal scale (nut-12th x 2) + 1mm for the high E and nominal scale + 2.5 mm for the low E. Tweak from there until it sounds sweet. Heavier string require more compensation than light.

This order of operations is important - if you start with the saddles and then change the action at the 12th, the saddles will be out, and so on.

Important note: this setup only works for the gauge of strings you use. If you swap to a different gauge you will probably need to reset relief and tweak the saddles (but the nut should still be OK).

Second note: old strings can intonate badly because they are dented and/or stretched in spots. You might use old strings to get it close, and then do final adjustment with new strings fitted.
There is another thing that catches people out with Strats and tuning. Are your neck and middle pickups too close to the strings? The magnetic fields from these damp the overtones and can be a real problem. I agree with everything profchris says but I don't tend to do Strat or Tele setups this way. I'm lucky in that I have a pretty good feel for set ups and can sit down with a set of Alan keys and screwdrivers and just get it "right". Been doing it that way for 40 odd years now, it's just a knack I have, and before anyone jumps up and down and tells me how wrong I am, it was an ex Fender European service manager and a very good luthier who showed me when I was a kid, and I've never set up a guitar for anyone who hasn't liked it, and I've set up literally 100s
As mentioned before, truss rods only ever for relief and always a good idea to take the adjustment nut off and lightly grease the thread with vaseline before setting the relief.
Most of the best luthiers intonate with the harmonic at the 12th. Compensation either way also allows for the different widths of the strings which affect tuning. Guitar intonation is always a compromise.
I'd get a fret scale chart (free on Stewmac) and measure your fret spacing. I've know cheaper guitars to be way out beyond making good with out a refret or new neck, to be fair I've even know Gibsons with iffy fret spacings.
I know some people are trying to be helpful but there is a lot of misinformation out there and quoting it as fact doesn't help. Stewmac, and Twoodford on You tube are excellent resources.
Good luck
G
 
There is another thing that catches people out with Strats and tuning. Are your neck and middle pickups too close to the strings? The magnetic fields from these damp the overtones and can be a real problem. I agree with everything profchris says but I don't tend to do Strat or Tele setups this way. I'm lucky in that I have a pretty good feel for set ups and can sit down with a set of Alan keys and screwdrivers and just get it "right". Been doing it that way for 40 odd years now, it's just a knack I have, and before anyone jumps up and down and tells me how wrong I am, it was an ex Fender European service manager and a very good luthier who showed me when I was a kid, and I've never set up a guitar for anyone who hasn't liked it, and I've set up literally 100s
As mentioned before, truss rods only ever for relief and always a good idea to take the adjustment nut off and lightly grease the thread with vaseline before setting the relief.
Most of the best luthiers intonate with the harmonic at the 12th. Compensation either way also allows for the different widths of the strings which affect tuning. Guitar intonation is always a compromise.
I'd get a fret scale chart (free on Stewmac) and measure your fret spacing. I've know cheaper guitars to be way out beyond making good with out a refret or new neck, to be fair I've even know Gibsons with iffy fret spacings.
I know some people are trying to be helpful but there is a lot of misinformation out there and quoting it as fact doesn't help. Stewmac, and Twoodford on You tube are excellent resources.
Good luck
G
Thanks for that. Could be that the frets are out but I thought getting 12 right would be best compromise. I'll carry on and regard it as a learning process!
 
If the bridge is still floating, you can tighten the screws in the anchor to tilt the whole bridge back a bit.

I hate trem bridges for this exact reason.
 
If the bridge is still floating, you can tighten the screws in the anchor to tilt the whole bridge back a bit.

I hate trem bridges for this exact reason.
Done that. I thought I might pack it a bit to force it back - a length of copper wire under the leading edge perhaps, and wood blocks behind.
 
Done that. I thought I might pack it a bit to force it back - a length of copper wire under the leading edge perhaps, and wood blocks behind.
But the tail block itself has room to swing back a bit further still? You could either get some stiffer springs; or grab your router and make the back route a bit longer.
 
There are two positions on a fretted string where (when properly intonated) the struck harmonic and the fretted note are identical - 12th fret and 19th fret. An electronic tuner is a great help - even the five quid clip-on jobs will help.

How far out in the intonation at the twelfth fret? abd is the fretted note sharp or flat?
 
There are two positions on a fretted string where (when properly intonated) the struck harmonic and the fretted note are identical - 12th fret and 19th fret. An electronic tuner is a great help - even the five quid clip-on jobs will help.

How far out in the intonation at the twelfth fret? abd is the fretted note sharp or flat?
Fretted note sharp by about 1/4 of a semitone (according to the tuner). Enough to hear it quite clearly i.e. string too short. I'll try the 19th tomorrow.
 
my starting point is getting the high E string fully forward on the brigde/saddle or almost all the way like 90% in the exact spot of the scale length so on a strat that'd be 25 1/2" then you'll normally find it's about 1/8" from there where the low E ends up, I like to use harmonics more as well at the 12th fret than actually fretting it, sometimes you will need to move the bridge back or forward a bit but it's worth getting it spot on.
 
Assuming that the action is reasonably low (action set high will increase the tension as the note is fretted) that discrepancy suggests a movement of about three sixteenths (5mm) - an eror that big should show up with a tape measure - on the high E (thinnest string) the Nut to 12 should be very nearly the same as bridge saddle to 12 - The slight variation on my 335 (ten thou string) is about a sixteenth longer 12 to bridge - for a theoretical perfectly flexible string the two distances would be identical.
 
Just built a kit guitar, intonation was annoying to get right.

The advice I followed in the end was.
1: get the nut height set, 2: set the trussrod for the right relief, 3: set action ( within reason ) 4: adjust intonation at 12th fret.

I was struggling with it for ages, in the end my problem was partly that I was relying upon the guitar tuna app on my phone.
This is not good enough so the end I downloaded a better tuner ( strobing type ) this allowed me to get the 12th fret harmonic 1 octave up etc.
Turned out I was closer than I thought but the other tuner was giving a false positive of some kind.
I also had to reverse one or two saddles on the tune o matic bridge and the G is still pretty near its maximum travel.
Ours is a gibson 24.75 scale but principles should be the same.

You might try a different string gauge, might make up enough difference to bring it back into adjustment range.
Good luck

Ollie

+1 get the peterson strobe tuner app, worth every penny imo, it's the main thing I use my smart phone for.
 

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