straight from the saw?

[GazPal]

The area you're falling down is when it boils down to accurately cutting joints without having the cut interfer with the line. Allowances and tolerances fall within the scope of both marking out and cutting and all I've done is mention means of improving your performance, with a heavy basis on my own long term experience as a cabinetmaker & luthier. Nothing more or less, but at the end of the day what you choose to do with the information provided is obviously up to you.

Working to patterns is actually far more accurate than having to re-mark the same joint/design individually on numerous pieces of work. This is by virtue of everything being laid out once on the pattern and simply traced or copied directly from the outline and/or dimensionally accurate gauging rod. You don't strictly need to re-measure every single step on multiple items if you work to a pattern.

I don't know why you seem to feel I need to see a picture of a haunched mortise & tenon joint, but please feel free. An increase in gluing surface area by your assumed 6 - 8% is far better than no increase at all. :wink: It isn't rocket science. :lol:

Tenon saws can and are set to both rip and cross-cut formats and I use both set-ups for my tenon saws. You can use either, but will find most tenon saws are supplied in cross-cut format. Reduce the set and you've something bordering on a flush-cut saw and you avoid tearing adjacent timber by adopting accurate cutting technique.

 

[adrian]

The area you're falling down is when it boils down to accurately cutting joints without having the cut interfer with the line. Allowances and tolerances fall within the scope of both marking out and cutting and all I've done is mention means of improving your performance, with a heavy basis on my own long term experience as a cabinetmaker & luthier. Nothing more or less, but at the end of the day what you choose to do with the information provided is obviously up to you.

Actually the area where I'm having trouble is not in cutting the joint. I have high confidence that I can cut a satisfactory shoulder line for my tenons, for example. The problem is in cutting all the way through the 44mm thick square timber, basically the top end of the legs.

Unless I'm missing something, your recommended means of improving my performance is to breathe normally (avoid holding my breath) and relax. And practice. All good advice. I don't believe I was holding my breath nor that I was tense when I performed my practice cuts, but next time I'll pay close attention. But I don't believe this advice is going to revolutionize my sawing. (On the contrary, when I learned about chiseling a V at the knife line that technique helped me considerably.)

Working to patterns is actually far more accurate than having to re-mark the same joint/design individually on numerous pieces of work. This is by virtue of everything being laid out once on the pattern and simply traced or copied directly from the outline and/or dimensionally accurate gauging rod. You don't strictly need to re-measure every single step on multiple items if you work to a pattern.

If I use a pattern I have to mark the same pattern individually with no guide at all on the side where I can't attach the pattern, so I have to do it by carrying the pattern line around the end, which tends to introduce error. If I don't use a pattern I can use a marking gauge on the end which will give me good repeatability assuming I mark them all at one time and don't reset the marking gauge. I have to consider the amount of labor involved as well and the pattern approach requires more labor since I have to make the pattern. It appears to be more labor, more difficult to do the marking, and probably slightly less accurate. There are other circumstances where a pattern would clearly be the right (and perhaps only) approach. But I don't believe this is one of them.

I don't know why you seem to feel I need to see a picture of a haunched mortise & tenon joint, but please feel free. An increase in gluing surface area by your assumed 6 - 8% is far better than no increase at all. :wink: It isn't rocket science. :lol:

The picture is to provide context for what *I* think a haunched mortise and tenon joint looks like so that you can perhaps say something like "that's totally wrong...I do it like this..." A 6%-8% increase in gluing surface is not "far better" than no increase at all, it's a little bit better. Eight percent isn't very much. And maybe the joint is 8% weakened in some way by introducing the haunch (e.g. against the rail moving up or down) since more material is removed from the mortise. The mortise is the weak part of a mortise and tenon joint, after all. If glue area was everything then all tenons would be the full width of the board. Or we could just use lap joints.

Tenon saws can and are set to both rip and cross-cut formats and I use both set-ups for my tenon saws. You can use either, but will find most tenon saws are supplied in cross-cut format. Reduce the set and you've something bordering on a flush-cut saw and you avoid tearing adjacent timber by adopting accurate cutting technique.

I stand corrected. My tenon saw, like my dovetail saw, is filed rip. What about using an actual flush cut saw for this fix?

 

[Karl]

Actually the area where I'm having trouble is not in cutting the joint. I have high confidence that I can cut a satisfactory shoulder line for my tenons, for example. The problem is in cutting all the way through the 44mm thick square timber, basically the top end of the legs.

Unless I'm missing something, your recommended means of improving my performance is to breathe normally (avoid holding my breath) and relax. And practice. All good advice. I don't believe I was holding my breath nor that I was tense when I performed my practice cuts, but next time I'll pay close attention. But I don't believe this advice is going to revolutionize my sawing.

Adrian

First off, if you can't cut the timber square, then you need to practice more. Simple. If you're a little out, take a block plane to the end of the leg to square it up. Or square it up on a disc sander.

Secondly, your general attitude when people try to provide assistance (not only in this thread but in numerous of your previous threads) leaves a lot to be desired. The second paragraph above for example.

Cheers

Karl

 

[GazPal]

I've no interest in debating finer points when none really exist. You say you're having problems and seek advice concerning very basic framing and jointing work, as well as cutting accuracy. This and your apparent uncertainty tends to imply novice (Neophyte) status and a lack of experience and truly shouldn't be a problem to anyone. We all had to learn at some point and quite honestly never stop learning. Unfortunately, you choose to argue and debate aspects instead of gathering and accepting information which is freely offered, before adapting given methods to suit your own work and disgarding those which don't fit your needs. Fair enough, but none of the advice offered is ever intended as personal criticism and all I ask is that you read carefully whilst avoiding the assumption that comments or suggestions are critique.

The example of a haunched mortise and tenon joint, linked by you, is a typical layout for a through joint and not a great deal more can be said of it.

On a cumulative scale, a 6-8% increase in gluing surfaces amounts to - on a set of four legs - would seem to lead to an increase of between 24-32%, but a more realistic increase in overall joint dimensions is approx. 8%. Regardless, any increase can only ever be a positive one insomuch as structural strength gain and as long as proportions are correctly laid out.

The weakest part of the mortise and tenon joint tends to be the person crafting it (Not the mortise) and this is why it pays to practise making such joints before committing to real time projects. Additional gluing/friction surface area and positive changes in geometry (Such as haunches) can help toward correcting potential short-comings if made correctly. Let's try not to forget the timber removed from a haunched tenon is compensated for via adjusting mortise dimensions to match. The weakest point of a mortise and tenon joint tends to be at the tenon shoulders (Mortise' don't tend to snap or deteriorate as readily as tenons) if they're not cleanly cut ie. overcut shoulders where end grain is inadvertantly severed and therefore weakens the tenon.

A well cut joint should be structurally sound and capable of holding together without glue. Glue is simply a means of reinforcing and adhering such joints while preventing inadvertant dis-assembly.

I can't see why you have so much of a problem with the use of patterns. Their use is common among far more complex work than the project you're involved with and - if anything - they help eliminate problems rather than introduce them, while eliminating the need to measure and re-measure dimensions. Measuring and re-measuring during the laying out process is where error frequency tends to increase.

The trick is to produce a pattern/template that is practical for application on the project in hand. Pair this with a gauging rod/stick and you should have no problems concerning dimensional accuracy and transfers. The time spent during planning and preparation is more than well worthwhile.

Finely set tenon saws have been used for such fixes since Moses was in his crib, but there's no problem in using a flush cut/finely set pull saw as long as the blade doesn't flex too much, or jam during the cut. It typically pays to at least possess a pair of tenon saws, with one set for rip and the other set for crosscut work. This broadens your options whilst working and dovetail saws have a tendancy toward being finely set and sharpened for rip cutting anyway.

 

[adrian]

First off, if you can't cut the timber square, then you need to practice more. Simple. If you're a little out, take a block plane to the end of the leg to square it up. Or square it up on a disc sander.

There exist mitre saws and shooting boards. Are you saying that I should, with sufficient practice, be able to dispense with these type of guides under all circumstances, essentially that they are crutches? This is the basic question that I was trying to get perspective on---when is the answer more practice and when is the answer to use a guide of some sort or some kind of "trick".

If I leave horns on the joint and cut them off later, then if my saw cut is on the wrong side of the line, squaring it up with a block plane after words will increase the error.

I practiced more last night and I definitely have a problem veering to the left. I think I'm going to see if I can intentionally veer the other way...

Secondly, your general attitude when people try to provide assistance (not only in this thread but in numerous of your previous threads) leaves a lot to be desired. The second paragraph above for example.

More below on my general attitude below. I agree that I probably shouldn't have written the last sentence of the quoted second paragraph in question since it was somewhat critical and not productive. The rest of that paragraph was a summary of advice received and I'm not sure why it would be objectionable. Summarizing my understanding of what the other person said gives the other person a chance to explain if I've misunderstood or overlooked something.

I've no interest in debating finer points when none really exist. You say you're having problems and seek advice concerning very basic framing and jointing work, as well as cutting accuracy. This and your apparent uncertainty tends to imply novice (Neophyte) status and a lack of experience and truly shouldn't be a problem to anyone. We all had to learn at some point and quite honestly never stop learning. Unfortunately, you choose to argue and debate aspects instead of gathering and accepting information which is freely offered, before adapting given methods to suit your own work and disgarding those which don't fit your needs. Fair enough, but none of the advice offered is ever intended as personal criticism and all I ask is that you read carefully whilst avoiding the assumption that comments or suggestions are critique.

I do not feel like anybody has personally criticized me in this discussion. I tend to think about things a lot (probably more than most people on this forum thinks is reasonable). That means that when someone makes a suggestion or gives advice I like to talk about the implications of the suggestion and make sure I understand why it is likely to be better than what I'm currently doing, or perhaps to identify disadvantages of the particular suggestion and the circumstances where it might not be the best choice. This means that I'm prone to debating. It means I examine and comment one people's advice rather than just passively "gathering and accepting" it. This doesn't mean I think there's anything wrong with what people have said, nor that I believe I've been personally attacked. It's my method of trying to gain the fullest (theoretical) understanding of the proposed techniques. Something may not fit my needs today but may be useful for my needs tomorrow.

As an example, in a previous thread I asked about edge planing and someone suggested planing the boards in pairs. When I explained my objections to that approach for my current project, the poster complained that I was ignoring his expert advise. But it didn't make sense to me for that project. On the next project it seemed to make sense and I tried this technique.

I can't see why you have so much of a problem with the use of patterns. Their use is common among far more complex work than the project you're involved with and - if anything - they help eliminate problems rather than introduce them, while eliminating the need to measure and re-measure dimensions. Measuring and re-measuring during the laying out process is where error frequency tends to increase.

I absolutely do not have any problem with the use of patterns in general. For more complex shaping work I expect they would be essential.

 

[GazPal]

BUT you're having problems working accurately to basic dimensions and with lay out.

Hence the suggestions for you to practise technique more thoroughly, cutting to the waste side of and trimming to lines, as well as the practicalities of working with patterns. By all means use whichever tools you think you need, but you honestly need to place more emphasis on skill set aquisition than the use of tools beyond those found within a basic tool kit.

You'll then find yourself armed with improved skill levels be more capable of resolving far more complex problems than how to cut an accurate mortise and tenon joint by hand instead of going about things in a cack handed manner.

The most obvious answer is always going to be a need for more practise in terms of raising practical skill sets and you'll then reach a point where you possess the skills to craft without reliance upon jigs or guides as a starting point. This may sound like old school, but learning the correct craft technique arms you with the ability to adapt, correct and - ideally - work to high degrees of accuracy freehand and without jigs or guides, but always to lines and dimensions.

By all means ask questions, but the ones you're asking aren't necessarily the right ones, because you're attempting to race beyond obtaining a proper grasp of the basics, e.g. accurate hand sawing and setting out.

The best means of gaining a better understanding of the technique and theory is for you to invest in and attend a practical woodworking course befitting your present skill sets. You should perhaps have begun with more basic projects before attempting larger and more complex ones. You've opinions exceeding your present skill levels and this is the last I'll say on the matter.

 

[Benchwayze]

I then cut the pieces roughly and finished off by planing free-hand. The knifed and chiseled line gave me a reference to plane to


It worked well - but you need a very sharp plane.....

Cheers :wink:

Paul

ALL my planes are very sharp Paul. It's just that I have some that are very much sharper than others! 8)

It would also help if I didn't go at it like a Bull in the proverbial China Shop!

John

 

[Benchwayze]

Adrian,

I don't understand why you are unable to control veering of the sawcut.

I am always loathe to blame my tools, but the only time I had trouble in keeping a cut square was when I first started, and when, through ignorance, I let my saw become 'out of condition',

I am a 'forefinger stretcher-outer' when I saw by the way. I find it helped me learn to saw straight when I was starting out.

40mm doesn't seem particularly bulky, but have you tried sawing square across the top, then flipping the piece over and using the cut as a guide for the saw. You can repeat this all around the stock if it's truly square.

HTH

John