Stock Dimensions for Making Boxes

[LoftyDave]

I wish to make a variety of boxes using mahogany and other hardwoods. I have written a Golden Ratio spreadsheet calculator to assist me in selecting the Height, Width and Length of the boxes I wish to make. This takes into account the material lost using different joint types (e.g. through dovetail, or half dovetail) and the Kerf lost when cutting the lid.

I am fortunate to have a metric Incra LS Positioner which provides a wide range of dovetail and box joints with recommended stock thicknesses for each template. However, neither the Incra Manual or the Project book provide any guidance on the thickness for different sized boxes.

Google and YouTube searches have also not helped. Some boxes I have seen, which I would like to replicate, sometimes seem chunky or too thin. I also like the idea of fitting a lining in a different hardwood; perhaps with an internal lip which goes into the lid.

I wonder whether anyone can recommend a good book or other reference on box making which will provide guidance on the thickness of the stock to be used for different sized boxes. For example, if I made a box 10cm tall, 16cm wide and 26cm long would the recommended stock thickness be 10mm or 15mm. Also, if I were to line the box, what would be the best thickness for the lining with a lip which fits into the lid?

I am sure that as I start to make the boxes, I will have a better idea (eye of the beholder etc.) but some initial guidance would be much appreciated.

Many thanks,

Dave

 

[Jacob]

There are no rules they come in all thicknesses, shapes and sizes. Simplest would be to copy a box design you fancy, either an actual box you can get your hands on, or a design from the net or a book. Search this forum for starters?
I wouldn't constrain yourself with "the golden ratio" either - it's fairly meaningless. Paper sizes more relevant perhaps, e.g. boxes to keep A4 sheets in?
The basic rule with making anything is wherever possible to copy a good example.

 

[Ttrees]

Hello Dave, this video might have a glimmer of some interest.
I think Rob has a good eye for things, which might be worth seeing regardless if you are
cutting by router or hand.
Its interesting to see some of the changes he has made along the way regarding proportions.


Tom

 

[TheTiddles]

See, what you want isn’t a spreadsheet, it’s a pencil and a piece of paper.

Sadly you might quickly see that an Incra cut joint just can’t look as good as a handmade one (or a WoodRat cutter one at a pinch)

Leave enough material somehow for your hinges and lock etc... the rest is variable, draw it and see what looks good, or do what any self-respecting engineer would do, and copy someone else’s

Aidan

 

[Blackswanwood]

I work back from the hardware. Smart Hinges (Google Andrew Crawford if you have not come across them) are 8mm so 14mm tends to be about right imho.

Andrew was doing Zoom sessions with a taster session for free. If he still is you could ask him ... he’s The Grandmaster of box making!

 

[Just4Fun]

Based on the boxes I have made (ie a few but not huge numbers) the best advice I can give is decide what thickness of wood you think will be good and then halve it. I think many people start out by making their boxes much too "clunky" and thinner stock would produce a much more elegant box. Certainly that is the way my work has progressed.

 

[Jacob]

What does an "Incra LS Positioner" do that you can't do without it?
They are very expensive but it says nothing intelligible on the site about why anybody would want one. If you buy the extra bits you could spend £1000 or more!
Price of gadgets seems to be hitting the roof - wouldn't it be cheaper to get a chap in to do the job for you?
PS "Incra" does seem to be a big name in the world of gadgets which nobody needs.

 

[Jacob]

.... I think many people start out by making their boxes much too "clunky" and thinner stock would produce a much more elegant box. ,,,,

Can work both ways - it's interesting to guess the thickness or size of something and then check it with callipers or a tape. Really easy to get it wrong (bin there dunnit )

 

[LoftyDave]

Many thanks for all the quick and helpful responses and links.

I‘ve tried to cut dovetails by hand but with mixed results. Those cut by experienced craftsmen such as Rob Cosman are very good so I will keep on trying. In the meantime, the Incra LS Positioner should enable me to produce better results!

The spreadsheet is useful as it helps me determine the size of the box based on the pieces I have, taking into account the complex calculations required for some of the Incra LS dovetails. The Golden Ratio was an easy add on to see if it helped me get the right proportions.

The LS Positioner does limit the range of thicknesses depending on which template you use so I will choose the thinnest stock that Andrew's Smart hinges will fit.

 

[LoftyDave]

What does an "Incra LS Positioner" do that you can't do without it?
They are very expensive but it says nothing intelligible on the site about why anybody would want one. If you buy the extra bits you could spend £1000 or more!
Price of gadgets seems to be hitting the roof - wouldn't it be cheaper to get a chap in to do the job for you?
PS "Incra" does seem to be a big name in the world of gadgets which nobody needs.

Agreed the Incra LS Positioner is an expensive toy but the precision it gives has to be admired. My attempts at hand cut dovetails have also been expensive in wasted wood

Hopefully, I will be able to show the use of the LS Positioner in a Project and give an honest review. One criticism is that the Metric version uses Imperial Dovetails so there are not as many templates. Fortunately, there is an open source program pyrouterjig which allows templates to be created. I’ve only produced one template so far but it is easy to use.

I like the Corner Post Dovetail shown on this video:


Cheers,

Dave

 

[Cabinetman]

See, what you want isn’t a spreadsheet, it’s a pencil and a piece of paper.

Sadly you might quickly see that an Incra cut joint just can’t look as good as a handmade one (or a WoodRat cutter one at a pinch)

Leave enough material somehow for your hinges and lock etc... the rest is variable, draw it and see what looks good, or do what any self-respecting engineer would do, and copy someone else’s

Aidan

Spot-on, it is relatively easy to get the proportions right, or another way of saying it is, you know it’s wrong when you see it, too high too long too square, and thickness of material, if the hinges mean that the sides have to be 14 mm thick, that means those hinges are only suitable for larger boxes in my opinion, you can’t use thick material on a small box – clunky. Not a recognised test, but if you knock your knuckle on the side of a box, those made from material that’s too thick sound dull compared to a finely made one.
Machinemade dovetails, l don’t think you’ll feel satisfied when you finish the box in the same way as if you had cut them yourself , you may as well buy a box off the shelf and say it’s yours. Ian

 

[marcros]

For boxes, I tend to use cornflake box cardboard and sticky tape rather than pencil and paper. I am not as dismissive of the spreadsheet as others though. A starting point for me is a ratio of 3*2*1 or 3*1*1. It doesn't need to be mm exact to look right, and from memory the golden ratio is 1.6:1 . On a 300mm wide box, my depth would be 200mm, yours 187mm. It isn't going to stand out as a difference! 10-12mm sides look about right on that and allow a few choices of hinges.

 

[Jacob]

For boxes, I tend to use cornflake box cardboard and sticky tape rather than pencil and paper. I am not as dismissive of the spreadsheet as others though. A starting point for me is a ratio of 3*2*1 or 3*1*1. It doesn't need to be mm exact to look right, and from memory the golden ratio is 1.6:1 . On a 300mm wide box, my depth would be 200mm, yours 187mm. It isn't going to stand out as a difference! 10-12mm sides look about right on that and allow a few choices of hinges.

Starting point for me would be what goes in the box.
Years ago I made 100s of jackinabox boxes 4" cube.
PS - thinking back, the sides (sycamore) were about 6mm which was about as thin as practicable. The top and bottom was 4mm glued on contrasting hardwood. Top sawn off at about 15mm
Ornamental boxes can all sorts of shapes, cylindrical or spherical even.
Golden ratio is just a bit of alchemy - have a look at some actual boxes for reference

 

[TheTiddles]

It’s not just about the numbers, the style comes into it too
Here’s a small box with 18mm sides plus the veneer...

I think the sides are only just on the thick side, it works for this format.

 

[Jorny]

Pen and paper is the best advise in this thread so far. If you would you could make a mock up out of cardboard. Also the tip of deciding what the box is for and sizing it after that is a good one. I think you are overthinking this. Either just make 1:1 drawings or start making the boxes, you'll find out soon enough what you like.

When I went to architecture school we were discouraged to use computers for the first two semesters except for putting together presentations. Drawings and illustrations were to be made by hand, and physical models was seen as the most important tool. The point was not only to train our drawing and model making skills, it was also a way to teach us not to be limited by the tools at our disposal. If we had started with 3D and CAD-software our designs and design thinking would have been limited by our knowledge of that software and the architecture produced would be shaped by the latest plug-in or function we learned. I think you letting your designs being a bit shaped by the tools at your disposal. As I said before sit down with your stock, paper and a pencil and start from what you think looks right.

 

[recipio]

Box dimensions tend to be dictated by the size of the hinges. As side rail hinges are typically 8 mm wide I have settled on 12 mm thick as optimal. If you are using 90 degree stop butt hinges then the back side of the box can be a little thicker - while keeping the sides at 12mm. Of course the overall size of the box must hold whatever it was designed for - and a little more. I recently built a cutlery box and her indoors complains the cutlery is 'jammed in' - lesson learnt !

 

[Nelly111s]

For books, any by Andrew Crawford can be recommended. Also, if you wanted any tuition on making boxes, I have been on one of his courses and found it excellent and money well spent.

 

[Jacob]

Box dimensions tend to be dictated by the size of the hinges. ......

And/or chosen hinge sizes dictated by the box dimensions. Depends on your priorities

 

[LoftyDave]

Many thanks for the encouragement everyone. Spreadsheet ditched until I’ve used paper and pen and made a few boxes. I will also persevere with cutting dovetails by hand.

The LS Positioner and spreadsheet will be used for cutting the more complex dovetails such as the Double Dovetail Corner Post below as my skills and maths are not good enough yet.

Rather like the idea of using cereal boxes to determine the sizes.

I have some small blocks of exotic hardwoods from my father-in-law who was a wood turner which would be good for boxes like Tiddles showed but glued rather than veneered.

Dave

 

[Inspector]

There are many ways to approach box making.

One is to design around the contents or purpose of it. I made a gun case for a flintlock rifle a long time ago and the golden mean wouldn't work for something like it. I have made snot box tissue covers and the size is dictated by the box they fit over. Another time it was to house a bunch of cassette tapes and final records, man I'm old, so those dictated the size.

Another is to design with the materials you have available in mind. There will be times you have a beautiful board that if cut will loose a lot of figure so you fit the box around it. Or the wood when cut into four thin pieces edge glued together again will match up in a nice pattern perfect for the lid.

The need to fit the hardware has been mentioned. In addition to the hinges locks need to be considered. A surface mounted hook is easy to accommodate but inletting a lock will need a minimum thickness for that lock or you have to hunt down another size tor type. Now with smaller boxes you can make them without hardware by having the lid slide onto a lip or over the outside of the box. Better used on a small box but doable with a ribbon or cord/rope tied over the lid to close it.

You can also design with the tools you have to work with. You want to use your Incra stuff and a particular joint might require just a little wider than ideal side in order to accommodate the number of fingers or dovetails it can fit. Incra also make a wood hinge jig that can free you from some hardware but limit you in other ways. If you have a decent sized bandsaw you can more easily accommodate ripping wider boards into thinner book matched stock where a small bandsaw limits the sizes you can work.

You can take many approaches and you will need to study and pay with them to find what fits you best. The more you see and do the more your instincts develop. Have fun with it. Failure can aways hold screws in the shop.

Pete