Starter sharpening stones

[Picalilli]

I think I’ll go with the honing guide to begin with. I don’t want to frustrate my experience by needing to spend a long time getting the muscle memory and practicing free hand sharpening. I’m thinking of actually just grabbing a honing guide and some psa sandpaper and using the stone I have to begin with, before spending a lot on a diamond stone.

Any advice on the best place to get PSA sandpaper? I’ve tried a quick google search and it doesn’t seem that widely available. What’s the advantage of this over just 80grit we

 

[Picalilli]

80grit wet and dry*

 

[pgrbff]

My reply here, as ever, is that if you need to buy a diamond plate to flatten a sharpening stone why not use the plate for sharpening and just bin the stone?

Because we all expect different things from our tools. Can you produce an 8 micron shaving 2m long 150mm wide with no tears with a typical diamond stone? I can't with any stone. You probably don't need or want to, but water stones will give a sharper edge.

 

[Jacob]

Because we all expect different things from our tools. Can you produce an 8 micron shaving 2m long 150mm wide with no tears with a typical diamond stone? You probably don't need or want to, but water stones will give a sharper edge.

Yep. Don't need or want to but then I guess neither do 99% of the punters on here!

 

[D_W]

80grit wet and dry*

Wet and dry is sharp but not durable for grinding. You just want a psa roll of aluminum oxide paper. The durability of the abrasive under pressure is a lot better.

I always buy it on Amazon because the price varies a lot by brand. Mirka gold is the best I've seen, but sometimes it's twice as expensive as another paper that's almost as good.

 

[D_W]

I have gone full circle, i started on waterstones but hated the mess, then went through diamond stones which are good and i still use for flattening backs etc. I now use oilstones and a strop. It quick and i like the oil as it fends off the rust in my garage which is cold. I tend to sharpen freehand so maybe that is a factor

I also did the same. I've used everything known to man except the razor strop mushroom and prefer oilstones. If very fine is desirable, oxides, micron pastes and loose diamonds are usually much cheaper than the high dollar stones, finer and more closely graded than most stones, and you can use them with a light oil and no rust. I haven't had a chisel rust since going to oilstones, and I have a lot of chisels that don't get used often.

There's a persistent myth that oilstones are slow and the real explanation of that is varied. For the ones that actually are slow, the key is to bias their use just at the edge.

I also finish the tip of a tool with a buffer quite often now. If the geometry accommodations are accounted for, it's faster than stones and the edge is more uniformly and finely finished. But that's down the road a little for the op.

 

[andy hamilton]

Thanks for the detailed advice. Think I may end up going with the Axminster one as I’ll go there on Saturday anyway.

Was hoping to get their basic honing guide for £13 but seems sold out, loads of things seem sold out right now - not sure if this is covid impact on supply (or maybe just loads of people getting into woodwork during lockdown!)

I’ve never heard of autosol but this sounds like a good, cheap solution.

I wouldn't bother with a honing guide, you'll soon get used to holding plane irons and chisels at the right angles with a bit of practice and it's quicker that way. Within a few degrees the angles aren't critical. If you really want a honing guide, I was given one few years ago and never use it. Not even sure if I still have it, but if I can find it, it's yours fer nowt if you can come over for it. I'll have a look for it in the workshop this pm. I'm near Yeovil

 

[Picalilli]

Thanks for that very kind offer, I’m a bit far away though as I’m in Tyne and Wear!
I have been looking at the cheap eclipse ones on eBay and might see if I can just pick one up for a few quid. I’ve heard mixed things on honing guides and learning to hold the angle of the blade, some people say it takes years of practice. From a knife sharpening point of view I can say that, although I do tend to get a decent enough edge for slicing onions just going freehand, I’ve never managed to get to the point of being able to slice newspaper edges. It’s always been a bit hit and miss too, and I’m not too fussed with using a guide if they’re cheap enough. Not sure how kitchen knives compare to chisel sharpening

 

[Jacob]

..... learning to hold the angle of the blade, some people say it takes years of practice. .....

10 minutes should do it. Most woodwork operations are much more difficult and require better hand eye coordination.
The main thing is knowing what you are doing - hence my earlier comments about the "burr" - something which I didn't pick up myself when I started

 

[Awac]

• Optional-I enjoy a hand cranked grinder. It is surprisingly quick and gets you near the angle (use the stones to "get" the angle), once you get the hang of it. You can buy them for a song if you keep a watch on eBay etc. Try to get one with space for a 6" wheel, and build a tool rest if it does not have one.
• Coarse diamond stone-Use it to get shape (saves time) and flatten/refresh finer stones.
• Man made stones, I like Norton medium then fine.
• Optional-Natural fine stone.
• Make a leather strop, use green or blue compound.

This is my preference for everyday sharpening. You can get used man made stones cheaply on sites like eBay, try to get a brand like Norton or Pike (same thing), clean them up with kerosene or such like. The real trick is learning to keep them from clogging. Some people use water, I prefer oil. Put it on before you use, and when finished, re-oil,wipe off, re-oil. This takes the fillings out of the surface. Don't bother with "fancy pants" honing oil, I use sewing machine oil, cheap doesn't gum up and I find does not effect my skin. Use the coarse diamond to freshen up the surface now and again, this is why a cheap one can work ok . Eclipse 36 honing guide is a good starting guide for chisels and plane blades.

This is how it starts, I love natural stones (especially Arkansas), so it can get expensive. Start cheap, it will do most what you need and expand if you have the need or just find it fun. I have a friend who is a marine geologist for oil exploration companies and he has just given me some bore samples from the North Sea bed to try, it gets that bad....
I have a Sorby pro-edge for really bad edges/re-shape a bezel (think job lot purchase of chisels, nothing can touch it).

The biggest thing you can do to improve sharpness, is learn. Buy a couple of books and understand what is happening. I just love sharpening, I expect it is a cousin of train spotting (Oh, now I've done it!)....just get me talking about saw tooth angles...

 

[Jacob]

• ......

I have a Sorby pro-edge for really bad edges/re-shape a bezel (think job lot purchase of chisels, nothing can touch it).

I would have agreed with you until I had a go on my 12"dia disc sander lathe attachment. Does a lovely bevel! Sold the Pro-edge - a bit of a luxury and not cheap

.......... I just love sharpening, I expect it is a cousin of train spotting (Oh, now I've done it!)....just get me talking about saw tooth angles...

Me too. When I re discovered freehand speed and rounded bevels I sharpened everything in the workshop and was a bit disappointed when I'd come to the end! I still keep finding long unused but surprisingly sharp chisels!

 

[D_W]

Thanks for that very kind offer, I’m a bit far away though as I’m in Tyne and Wear!
I have been looking at the cheap eclipse ones on eBay and might see if I can just pick one up for a few quid. I’ve heard mixed things on honing guides and learning to hold the angle of the blade, some people say it takes years of practice. From a knife sharpening point of view I can say that, although I do tend to get a decent enough edge for slicing onions just going freehand, I’ve never managed to get to the point of being able to slice newspaper edges. It’s always been a bit hit and miss too, and I’m not too fussed with using a guide if they’re cheap enough. Not sure how kitchen knives compare to chisel sharpening

If you want to learn freehand honing quickly, do the following:
* grind a primary bevel on an iron or chisel around 25 degrees
* use a single medium stone and hone the edge of the tool a few degrees greater, alternating briefly back and forth at the end with lighter pressure, and then strop on bare leather.

You'll have a sharp tool. I agree with what jacob said - it takes about 10 minutes to learn. Failure should lead to a second try as the penalty to really deal with jigs is far greater unless your sharpening is extremely intermittent (woodworking friend of mine smooth planes rarely and needs to sharpen about twice a year. I suspect he probably isn't going to be wooed by freehand sharpening).

The process I described is to grind shallow, put a secondary bevel on slightly less shallow, and then you have a lot of room to work with the autosol and can do that around 30 degrees or a little greater only at the tip. Whatever ceases chipping and folding (which you'll figure out).

I and a few other guys here in the states have tested chisels when chopping and found that chipping on a flat bevel usually stops somewhere just north of 32 degrees. You wouldn't want a full flat bevel at that, but if you can keep the final bevel tiny and near that, the chipping at the edge stops, but you don't have to plow a fat bevel through the wood behind it wedging away like an axe with a blunt grind.

At any rate, it's easier to get a feel for this angle and complete the job of sharpening to the tip (especially if you grind away the material behind it at a shallower angle) than you'd guess. Certainly easier than cutting a tidy mortise or dovetails that don't need patch-up (and that's not that difficult, either - it just takes repetition and learning what perfect is and when it gets in the way as just as good for the piece but in a third of the time).

 

[Bm101]

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/ultex-diamond-stones.100153/
Custard is as well regarded as anyone on UKW , Read his account of ultex stones. Cracking quality for the price especially when ITS do a sale.
Get a jig/ guide if you want one. When you get more comfortable and practised you can sell it if it makes you feel more of a man. (Welcome back Jacob). If not you can tuck it away for major reginding of a profile.
Just don't get lost listening to the sharpening brigade.
Some people dedicate their lives to it. Honing compound this, rare oil that.... You can hone with mdf offcut and autosol metal polish. Its basically free.
Bore on.
You just want a sharpedge. Thats two smooth surfaces at the optimal angle for cutting well while taking longest to get blunt. Forget the rest.

 

[Jacob]

...When you get more comfortable and practised you can sell it if it makes you feel more of a man. (Welcome back Jacob).

Thanks for that, nice to be back! n.b. it's not about being more manly it's just easier, for girls too!

I.....
Just don't get lost listening to the sharpening brigade.

Yebbut which brigade!

Some people dedicate their lives to it. Honing compound this, rare oil that.... You can hone with mdf offcut and autosol metal polish. Its basically free.
Bore on.
You just want a sharpedge. Thats two smooth surfaces at the optimal angle for cutting well while taking longest to get blunt. Forget the rest.

Agree. I'd add - don't buy Honerite anything, it's more expensive than a good 10 year old malt! Would you hone a rusty old chisel with Talisker 10 Year Old ? Save it for Christmas!

 

[Awac]

I would have agreed with you until I had a go on my 12"dia disc sander lathe attachment. Does a lovely bevel! Sold the Pro-edge - a bit of a luxury and not cheap Me too. When I re discovered freehand speed and rounded bevels I sharpened everything in the workshop and was a bit disappointed when I'd come to the end! I still keep finding long unused but surprisingly sharp chisels!

Picalilli, do you now see what can happen to you if you are not careful? The unnatural urge to scrape tool steel against abrasive surfaces, and then look for more. Jacob, you can never come back from where you are now brother, I know....

 

[Awac]

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/ultex-diamond-stones.100153/
Custard is as well regarded as anyone on UKW , Read his account of ultex stones. Cracking quality for the price especially when ITS do a sale.
Get a jig/ guide if you want one. When you get more comfortable and practised you can sell it if it makes you feel more of a man. (Welcome back Jacob). If not you can tuck it away for major reginding of a profile.
Just don't get lost listening to the sharpening brigade.
Some people dedicate their lives to it. Honing compound this, rare oil that.... You can hone with mdf offcut and autosol metal polish. Its basically free.
Bore on.
You just want a sharpedge. Thats two smooth surfaces at the optimal angle for cutting well while taking longest to get blunt. Forget the rest.

Hagakure The Way of the Samurai

"Human life is truly a short affair. It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like. But it is important never to tell this to young people as it is something that would be harmful if incorrectly understood.

Personally, I like to sleep. And I intend to appropriately confine myself more and more to my living quarters and pass my life away sleeping".

Sleep, Sharpen, Woodwork, doing anything. The importance of the quote above is the meaning that you should choose what makes you happy. If that is getting the fastest edge or enjoying making the edge, then as long as you enjoyed, good for you. I agree with what you basically say, that too many people advise spending just to shop, that is why you should go with basics, but if you enjoy then dive in the the unreachable perfection (change the word sleep to sharpen), it's a Zen kinda thing.

 

[Bm101]

It's the constant arguing about which way is right and that there is only my way that I find tedious Awac. Find a way that works. If you want to spend a lifetime sharpening that's grand and getting excited about it. I get it. Theoretically. The process not the result. Me I'd rather get an edge sharp enough then try to learn how to use it. Each to their own. Although. It has to be said I'm not Japanese. Or a Samurai. Whilst I can admire Japanese culture I can't mysticise it to take spiritual strength from it or build it up to be a hallowed form. In the same way I wouldn't pretend that American Indian culture was spiritual in the way those films always portray them as being brother spirits to Eagles and mystics. *cue pan pipes*
I can understand it conceptualises the idea of sharpness, the labour of doing etc. I get it to a point but that's not me or my culture. That's not my social or cultural history. I don't disregard it for a moment but I struggle to pick out the best chocolates from the box and not leave the coffee cream there and pretend it doesn't exist. I don't really understand the romantcisation of Japanese culture as more spiritual or pure. It's just historically innaccurate.
More truth. Less Bollix.
Of course. That's just my take. You find fulfillment where you can as we all do. I try to find mine in the constant grind for improvement and learning from my mistakes. I used to go to the pub and get lashed.
Best of luck.

 

[Jacob]

It's the constant arguing about which way is right and that there is only my way that I find tedious Awac. Find a way that works. ......

Agree.
That's why I went back to doing it how I was taught at school about 65 years ago. Turned out to be a very good decision! Modern sharpening is basically about letting them sell you lots of kit.

 

[Bm101]

I'm done. You have no shame about twisting opinions or facts to support your views. Donald Trump could learn shame from you Jacob. You actively enjoy the trolling of other members. I don't so I'm out of this one. Toodles.
Literally. Good luck OP.

 

[jcassidy]

And here I was thinking I was being a mug for still using an oil stone and seriously considering splashing out some significant cash on good diamond stones... looks like I'm so retro, I'm back in fashion! LOL

Seriously though, I do use sanding paper and a bit of marble for cleaning up old chisels and plane blades, but day to day, it's always an oil stone and 3-in-1 oil, like back at school.