Stairs: Need to build some

[EdK]

Hello all,
I need some stairs.
I'm rennovating an old granite cottage and the old stairs were like the matterhorn and knackered. Building inspector knows about all the work and the lack of stairs so ok on that front.

The details:
Total rise: 2522
Max total run : 3000 happier with 2400 but won't get the 41.9 degrees with that.

The total going is variable.
3000 (angle of 37.8 degs) = 13 risers at 194 / 12 going at 250
2904 (angle of 38.7 degs) = 13 risers at 194 / 12 going at 242
2772 (angle of 40 degs) = 13 risers at 194 / 12 going at 231

I've got a block wall running on one side for most of the way and this kicks back by 250mm to a brick wall.

The other long side is currently into the main downstairs room (will post plans/pics later when I find the camera).

The end upstairs has a 900mm landing (can move the stud back if need be - house is plasterless and only studwork up no wiring/no plumbing... ooo and getting chilly btw ). The downstairs ends against a hall wall (which can be moved back if need be) and at 3000mm total going would give me 600mm to the wall.

If I go with 3000mm TG then I am thinking of adding a landing 90 degrees at the bottom step so you don't run into a wall.

Couple of questions:

Do you normally plaster before adding a staircase?
What is a nice combination of rise/going?
The narrowest part is 800mm - is this too narrow?
(From what I have read there is no regs on width.)
I can move the joist over a bit I think to give a bit more...

Boxing in... The struct eng is suggesting that I box in the side to the main room to keep heat downstairs. This will give a closed stair. Anyone got one? Does it feel too boxed in?

I have plenty of light above from two C04 velux.

I have looked at Magnet and Jeldwen but they all seem to be 860mm wide and cheaper ones with MDF treads/risers.

I then thought that I have a router/SCMS/ a few other tools and plenty of time between now and January so thought I'd have a go. Never done much with wood but am careful and precise normally and keen to do alot more.

How much wood do staircases like this use up?
Planning on housed stringer on both sides and a handrail on the block wall side.

I was thinking that a nice wood would be good... what woods are suitable for staircases. Am thinking oak but have not used this before and am not sure if I would be better with pine and a carpet... In my mind the stairs are a lovely natural wood though !

Currently reading Scott Scuttner's book Basic Stairbuilding...

Any advice to help me make one or point me away from this idea and buy one greatly appreciated.

(Local joiners are not interested...and they charge £2500...not until Feb...)

Cheers
Ed

 

[opener]

Hi Ed
I make stairs now and again and to answer your questions

Do you normally plaster before adding a staircase?

Matter of choice - plaster afterwards means not having to use a moulding to fill any gap between string and the wall - plaster before saves spoiling the wood of a nice oak staircase.

What is a nice combination of rise/going?

For a small cottage anything under 42 degrees would be fine. Check that twice the rise plus the going equals between 550 and 700mm. Max rise 220mm, Min going 220mm so your option of 194/231 would do well. It's usually more of a squeeze than that in my experience

The narrowest part is 800mm - is this too narrow?

I usually work to 800m between handrails (or wall and handrail)

Our cottage new extension living room has a staircase off it to an upstairs bedroom. It is boxed off which gives a triangular shape in one corner but it keeps the room warm in winter and has never bothered us. It is only boxed up to FF level and adds to the size of the bedroom.

Oak might be a bit ambitious for a first staircase build although you could use oak for the strings and MR MDF for the treads and risers, covered with carpet. If an 860mm Magnet staircase was traditionally made with wedges you could saw off the treads and risers at the required width, chop out the waste, make new wedges and re-wedge them into the string

Go for it
Malcolm

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Malcolm

Welcome to the forum.

Thank you for an excellent first post.

Cheers
Neil

 

[Dibs-h]

I built 2 flights of stairs, from the 1st floor to the loft conversion, several years ago - but was very fortunate that I was replicating the existing stairs from the ground floor to the 1st floor.

The existing stairs were about 42 degrees - but BC weren't splitting hairs over the odd degree or so.

I used white softwood throughout - I refused to use MDF. Fortunately the local timber yard sold something close to 2x12 (or thereabouts) PAR, which was spot on for the stringers. I made a jig for routing the housings in the stringer and others for the ones in the tread.

With stringers that thick - I screwed them to the side walls 1st and then skimmed the walls, as Malcolm pointed out, it gave a flush finish. If you are going to use oak for the staircase, then you could leave the finish coat until after the staircase is fixed in place. That way you'd minimise the mess and still avoid the need for the moulding,etc to cover the gap.

If I've read your post correctly you will need a newel post\handrail arrangement on the non-wall side. BC are going to insist upon it - with spindles arranged such that a sphere of 100mm dia can not pass thru.

When I made my staircases, I had more or less the same set of tools - but was fortunate to get all my wood PAR and virtually to size. The boards for the treads\risers were slightly wider than I wanted, but with the top of the riser housed into the front of the tread and the front of the tread having a bullnose - took care of that.

The angle of the wedges got me stuck for a while - until I removed a bit of plaster from back of the existing stairs and measured those wedges.

2 flights of 7 took me 6 evenings of 4 hours each.

220mm springs to mind - but can't remember whether it was the rise or the going. Will check when I get home this evening.

Hope it helps.


Dibs.

p.s. Don't forget to take the floorboards into account when measuring the total rise- nearly caught me out.

 

[John McM]

There is a Sketchup podcast all about designing stairs, might help you workout you need.

http://go-2-school.com/podcasts

latest podcast No.38

 

[EdK]

Here are some pics to illustrate what I mean.

Thinking about moving the joist back a bit (cut above rsj and move 75mm back to give wider stairs and narrower upstairs corridor).

Thanks for all the advice - am still in two minds about making one or buying and modifying one. Am leaning towards making one so just need to work out the wood.

Was thinking that maybe pine would be better for first attempt and get a carpet to hide a multitude of sins !

Need to work out stringer dimensions and treads/risers too.

Any thoughts on this:
Stringers : at least 26mm thick (1") x 300mm (12") x 4000mm (13' 2")
Treads : at least 20mm
Risers : at least 15mm

Like I said - probably pine.

What is parana pine ? Is it structurally stronger than 'normal' pine? Or does it just have more bite?!

Cheers for any help
Ed

 

[WellsWood]

What is parana pine ? Is it structurally stronger than 'normal' pine? Or does it just have more bite?!

Cheers for any help
Ed

Quite a bit denser than "ordinary", it's particularly liked for stair stringers I believe because of it's more stable characteristics. From memory of the last time I bought any (about 8 years) it's substantially more expensive. Mind you, I was pretty green regarding prices then so maybe I was just ripped off.

 

[lugo35]

£2500 sound expensive
but im a mean welsh man

for painted and carpeted stairs we used to use white wood ( spruse i think) cheap and will do the job but to be truthfull sh**.

ash looks good not bad price either.
have a go as long as you are acurate setting out and routing the strings

face of riser to the centre of the newel is what we used to do.

bit of a waffle but hope you can find something there that helps

 

[EdK]

Thanks for all the info.
My struct. eng. mate came round and suggested buying the stock staircase from local builder (Jeldwen 2600 rise 2700 going) and then fixing the top but letting the tail rest wherever it did. ie tipping it back so it fitted.

I think this is a compromise. To fit a staircase that is too long and wide...

Also the stairs are made with 20mm MDF treads and 9mm ply risers (pine veneered). Doesn't sound like good materials.

It's a mental struggle ! Easy option or harder option...

I think my structural engineer mate thinks I am mad.

But anyway, I priced up the following and am heading firmly towards making one and probably from a good hard wood.

If I make one from cheap pine and then have to carpet it I think it will peees me off eventually. So hardwood made by me it is. Finally a decision.

Well what wood is good?

Ash has been mentioned.
I can get the following locally:
Ash
Beech
Clear Fir (whatever that is?)
Iroko
Maple
American Oak
European Oak
Utile

I was thinking Ash but am not sure how this works and if it has good properties for stairs. Will it warp and cup and move ? Structural stability? Easy to work with router and hand tools ?

I have done some work with teak (found it ok), maple (found it hard as nails) and mahoghany (nice to work with).

Would also have to make newels and balusters from same wood. Oh and hand rails.

Had a read of an orange book from 1900's at lunchtime (George Ellis: Modern Practical Joinery). Some good insights on the 'old ways'... might use a router instead of tenon and chisels though

Ellis recommends a 9" stringer (228mm).
Schutner recommends a 9 1/2" stringer (241mm) by 1 to 1 1/2" (25mm to 38mm).

Stringers will be fixed to walls on both sides.

Worked this out (binning 2mm on the rise but think it will be ok).
TR : 2520mm : 12R @ 210mm
TG : 2585mm : 11G @ 235mm
Angle : 41.9 degrees (ish)
Stringer : 3781mm long min.

So this is what I was thinking wood wise:

Stringers: 3900mm x2 = 7800mm x 32mm x 250mm
Treads : 8400mm x 25mm x 250mm
Risers : 9300mm x 25mm x 225mm

Not sure if this is the right way to work out wood - just got their list from the wood merch. (Seems to come in 25mm / 32 / 38 / 50 / 63 / 75 / 100). Not sure how precise these are? ie if I get 25 x 250 will it actually be 22 x 240 ?

In ash:
S : £11.66/m = £82.68
T : £8.53/m = £71.65
R: £7.67/m = £71.33
Total £225.66

(Need rails and balusters and newels ontop of that).

The other listed woods (maple, beech etc) come in 225mm max. Is this too tight ? Or am I better off with a 32 x 225 stringer?

Enough about all this.
Any thoughts on:

1 - suitable wood
2 - stringer dimensions
3 - likely tools required

Cheers for all the help - this forum plus a book or too should see me right with a nice looking lightish natural wood staircase

Many thanks Ed

 

[CWatters]

This says min recommended width 800mm. Also that landings should be as long as the width of the stairs so 800 square in your case. Doors can open onto landings but that complicates things further.

link to leaflet

 

[opener]

It sounds like you'd prefer ash. I haven't used ash for stairs but Richard Burbidge make newels and handrails etc in ash so others must use it.
Look at http://richardburbidge.co.uk
The prices sound expensive but you should be able to get a discount when ordering through Jewson or other builders merchant.
Personally I don't like the dust from machining ash but you might not have a problem with it. Oak would be a lot more expensive but a possible alternative light timber could be Southern Yellow Pine or Pitch Pine both of which are clear softwoods.
25 x 225 finished size would be strong enough for the strings but you could increase both dimensions if you want to see more wood above the steps.
The treads should be 25mm finish and the risers 19/20mm.
I'm presuming you are buying in timber ready planed. It will need cross-cutting with handsaw or chop-saw. Use your router to round the nosings of the treads, groove and rebate the treads and risers and to trench the strings. Cut your wedges on a bandsaw or circular saw with a tapered jig.
The strings that meet the newels will need a tenon (rout each side and clean up with rebate plane) and the newel will need a mortice (use the router and deepen if necessary with drill bit and chisel). You'll need a belt sander and finishing sander to clean everything up and 4 sash cramps to hold the flight together as you hit the wedges in. Work your way along, cramp a couple of treads, wedge in, move down.
Hope this helps
Malcolm

 

[EdK]

Thanks Malcolm and CWatters,
Good to hear that those dimensions are about right.

Only one wood shop here (Guernsey) so not much choice !

Off to see them to see if they have wood of this size and what it looks like.

My mate the structural engineer just called and despite thinking me mad for trying this gave me some advice.
He said he doubted I could get wood as wide as that in good condition for the treads (235 tread so 250 boards) and mentioned that it would be better to buy narrower boards and join them to avoid movement.
Also he thinks beech would be nicer than ash.
But agreed that oak would be a bit ambitious at this stage (thinks my DW 6225EK will burn out).

Anyway thanks to one and all - will price up and try and get some good wood and attempt to get it built well.
Cheers
Ed

 

[kevinr]

Not that I know anything about this really - But couldn't you use a veneered PLY for the steps? This would be more stable and presumably stronger for the same size. You'd need to edge it with the same hardwood but thats easy compared to laminating or edge joining wood for all the steps.

Or if those veneers are a bit thin and fragile for walking on maybe you could use veneered flooring (possibly as the top coat). You know those T&G ones with a visible veneer (4mm or 6mm). Other flooring grade solid boards come in 19mm (incl. ash, beech). It might be a lot cheaper than general timber although you'd need to laminate or brace it to span a full stair I should guess.

 

[crazey]

I feel humbled by the level of expertise on this site and hope my amateur contribution doesn't diminish the site in any way. I built a staircase last October - nothing fancy, just a straight flight and the first one I had ever built. It was not straightforward as my barn doesn't have a right-angle in it so I had to compute the different string lengths. I bought my timber from a local Buildbase so the timber wasn't fantastic and warped as soon as I got it home. I don't have a router powerful enough to cut housings so decided to use blocks, glued and screwed to support the treads. I used 50mm timber (white softwood) which planed down to 44mm. (I experimented with different glues to find the strongest and made several dummy designs which got smashed with a hammer!)

I fussed a bit about building it so took a sort of Zen approach, just a little bit at a time, contemplate and then a little bit more. Anyway, the result was 95% of what I hoped and 200% of what I expected. Surprisingly, the tools used were a Mitutoyo 3' vernier caliper (MOST useful!), a Power Devil crosscut saw (ugh!), a Metabo 12" Planer thicknesser (pretty good), a Ferm table saw (surprisingly competent), a lttle Hitachi router for the bullnosing and half-dozen massive pre-war Record sash cramps. The cost was about £84 for the timber.

I erected it on my own even though it weighed 96 kilos and one of the stringers was 1/2" off the floor. I used some plasterboard jacks rated at 60kg each to support it whiltst fixing (Lidl, £9.00 the pair). My friend, Dave, called round and applied his 26 stone to the bottom tread and suddenly all was level.

The staircase angle was 45 degrees which had to be because of the geometry of the building and I expect the BI to give me an exemption on that.

The reward is, apart from the huge financial savings, are a sense of achievement and, in the process of doing this, discovered that I had a sense of patience that I didn't know I possessed.

Please keep us posted on what you decide to do.

Kind regards

Graham

 

[Chris Knight]

Opener,
Welcome to the forum.

Your message included this address http://richardburbidge.co.uk

After a couple more posts your URLs will show up in your posts - it's a system to discourage spamming.

 

[EdK]

Thanks for all the advice.
Getting closer to sorting this out and will post at least a finished picture and maybe even a few progress ones so that others may benefit from my mistakes Hoping to buy wood tomorrow, or at least get a quote.

Wood:
Ash (lots in stock and Dad has just dropped off half a room full of offcuts from a local carpenter - should be enough for blocks and scotias etc)

Stringers:
Whatever they have in 'straight and knot free' - maybe 32 or 38 by 225 or 250. Will have to rootle.

Treads:
Thought about buying 25mm by 150 and planning/joining to make laminates as suggested here but my mate Dave has suggested just using 235 wide (plus nosing and riser butt,so 250 ish) and hoping that the wedges will be enough to stop the cupping/warping. Maybe it'll add character?
Any thoughts on this? Or would you strongly advise me to make composite boards.
The Ellis book from the 1900's shows solid boards but they are thicker (32mm plus I think). Presumably part of the wedging process is so you can tweak boards as they move over time. Did they not laminate boards cos the wood was better then or because the glues were worse or cos the design (wedged) meant it wasn't necessary?

If solid I was going to get either 25mm planed to 21mm or thereabouts or 32mm planed to something like 28mm. THink the list dimension is a rough one and the planed version is a bit less.

I am keen to avoid laminating all my treads but will do so if it will make a better job. I guess it may boil down to using a thinner laminated board or a thicker solid board?

Risers:
Either 25mm solid ash planed to 21mm or 9mm/12mm faced ply.
I checked out a sample of the faced board and it looks quite good.

Any help much appreciated.
Thanks
Ed

 

[EdK]

Well I started today. A pile of ash was delivered a short while ago.
The stringers were pretty smooth so I sanded the inside faces and then had a go at getting rid of a 4mm gap when I butted the edges together. Never done any planing before but thought I'd have a go.
Took my time and have reduced it to about 1/2 mm which I reckon is good enough for marking out. Didn't want to go further as I thought I might make it worse (I thinik it is called a crown - anyway when butted gap is in centre and two ends touching).

Worked out the sides with maths (210 rise / 235 going / 315.2 side / 41.9degrees) - measured a 50mm margin and marked off 315.2mm units with a tape clamped to the margin line. Seemed to work ok and no compound errors cos of a running length. Did the other stringer and double checked everything - two 'adjustments' (erm errors ) and looked ok.

Clamped a roofing square to a straight bit of wood and marked off all the rise and goings. Double checked each length with a steel rule and seems ok.

Tomorrow will have a go at marking the treads and risers and then think about how to make a template for routing.

I have a bush guide and a DeWalt 1/2" router and the beginners 1/2" Trend 15 piece set.

What is a good material to make a template from? Clamp straight edged wood to the cut line (plus bush guide distance) and worry about the nosing later ? Or try and make the whole template from ply or mdf?

Getting there !
Cheers
Ed

 

[steve tighe]

Make your router template out of 1" mdf,you can do the rough cut-out with a jigsaw & clean up the edges with a straight line router jig (9 or 12mm mdf with a 3/4" 2" wide rip glued & pinned on top of it,run the router through the base using the 3/4" as a fence,then you can work to the lines on your strings)

You'd be better off using a 25mm long,top bearing,18 dia mm cutter with this jig as you'll be working to the setting out rather then having to guesstimate the difference between the bush & your lines.

Make the nosings on your jig smaller then you need,then take them out on the strings freehand using a dovetail cutter.While you're at it you may as well freehand router all the trenching with the dovetail bit(stay a couple of mm below the surface),everything closes up a lot tighter when you wedge the stairs up.The dovetailing allows for any discrepancies where the wedges are concerned as well.

As for wedges,then a 6 or 7:1 ratio is good enough,if you mark out the jig carefully enough then you can use the same wedge cutting jig for both the thread & riser wedges.

Tips for routering the strings,left hand string(presuming from the bottom of stairs)start from bottom of stairs (1st riser),right hand string start from top of stairs (top nosing if straight flight).Stops break out where back of thread meets bottom of riser(short grain breakout).Normal enough practice I know...routering from left to right,or clockwise where stair-trenching is concerned.

Assembling stairs,riser wedges always first,tread wedges always second.

Hope this helps a bit mate,it's not the easiest thing in the world to explain how to make a stairs in writing.

1st post folks,please be gentle.

 

[BradNaylor]

(Local joiners are not interested...and they charge £2500...not until Feb...)

Jeez...

I got my softwood stairs for my loft conversion from The Stair Shop in Stockport.

£160 + VAT

They just feed your sizes into a CNC machine and out pops your staircase ready to be glued together!

It wasn't even worth thinking about making it myself.

There must be similar firms around the country.

 

[crazey]

Now you tell us!