Stair advice, please.

[katellwood]

wrought iron balusters maybe screw under the mortice for the iron

 

[MikeG.]

These were wooden (parana pine), with wooden ballusters. The mortices for the ballusters were maybe half the depth of the tread, and there was a screw in the bottom of each holding the tread to the string.

What do you think of my idea of maybe dovetailing the bracket to the riser?

 

[Jacob]

Right, the cut-string side of the stair, and the all-important junction between the riser and the string. I am planning on something very similar to this (albeit with some carving):

A couple of questions. How is the riser fixed to the cut string? I can see no pins or plugs, so I am guessing it is just glued (clamping will be fun!). That's a weak glue joint, being end grain to long grain.

Secondly, I have seen the mitred junction between the riser and the planted-on piece open up unpleasantly on older stairs. Because of the moulding under the tread, I don't want a planted on moulding over this junction. I am thinking about dovetailing this join, rather than a mitre. Does anyone have any thoughts on that? One of the drivers for that is that the the riser is likely to be much thicker than the planted-on detail, which makes the mitre a sod (in my workshop, at least). The main reason, though, is to produce a joint which doesn't open up over time, and I don't trust a butted mitre.

That picture looks like computer graphics so you won't see any useful clues.
WB McKay "Building Construction" 1938 or similar or earlier. The treads sit on the notched string and all details are covered by planted on mouldings, no problemo.
Easiest for the riser would be to do the same but cover the joint with the carved piece planted on - put a half round mould on the front edge of this piece, so joints disappear into the shadow line. Otherwise it'd have to be mitred. No prob if you nail and glue the butted mitre joint well but nail only (no glue) the sides of the carved bracket - so any movement wouldn't open the joint, the riser and bracket would move as one. DTs sounds like a step too far - glue and nails do the same job.
I'm just making this up in parts, will have a look in the books tomorrow, if I can find them.
Basically it's all sorted in the old pre war books - no need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Jonathan S]

Mike
Here is a detail from McKay new edition 1968.....fantastic book! unfortunately only this on timber staircase construction.

Ive worked on old balustrading that was dovetailed into the string, the weakness was where it connected to the handrail.
Shouldn't be a problem on short flights.

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[Jonathan S]

Frank Hilton....Purpose made joinery.....has a nice detail of brackets and half dovetails

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[Jacob]

Mike
Here is a detail from McKay new edition 1968.....fantastic book! unfortunately only this on timber staircase construction.

Yes is top notch. Mines 1955 3 volume with more detail. Still doesn't say much about cut strings (well out of fashion) so went to "Joinery& Carpentry"

Figs 5,6 show plain cut string details - riser is mitred to the notched string
7,8 show ditto with brackets. Riser has rebate and the face extends at same thickness as the bracket, to meet the bracket with a mitre (clear where it says "bracket" in fig 7)
Fig 9 shows riser/tread details.
The old books are brilliant and there are lots of them still around. I think they are essential reference even if you want to do only modern stuff with cardboard and MDF :roll:
"Joinery & Carpentry" has loads on stairs and even more on handrails - the really difficult bit!

 

[Jacob]

Just looking at Jonathan S's Frank Hilton drawing. Details similar to but different from Greenhalgh book. "Return nosing slot screwed to the tread" in Hilton, "Tongue" in Greenhalgh.
"Slot screwing" is another nearly forgotten trick: normal countersunk screws put in, the nosing with a slot cut in the back is slid onto the screw heads which effectively scrape a locating V for themselves in the sides of the slot. Then the nosing is slid back, the screws tightened by half a turn and the nosing now replaced - the screws pull into their previous slot but now pull it tighter.
We did it as an exercise all those years ago and I've met examples in old buildings where boards are invisibly edge joined with slotted screws, but never actually used it.

 

[MikeG.]

I am sure that you are posting some terribly useful stuff Jacob, but you don't get to speak to me the way you did in the Brexit thread and then expect further interaction.

 

[Jacob]

I am sure that you are posting some terribly useful stuff Jacob, but you don't get to speak to me the way you did in the Brexit thread and then expect further interaction.

What? You mean all that hedge stuff? :lol:

 

[Trevanion]

I wish I could, but I can't really help you much more with cut string staircases, I've never made a proper* one from scratch like the one you're planning on attempting. I would normally suggest getting a copy of "Modern Practical Stairbuiling and Handrailing" by George Ellis and "A Simplified Guide to Custom Stairbuilding and Tangent Handrailing" by George R. diCristina but I've had a quick flick through them and couldn't really see any groundbreaking information on cut strings that would help you out more, there may be something but I couldn't see it :?

(* I've made open tread staircases with cut strings but that isn't really proper, it really wasn't proper as it wasn't even a cut string but triangles glued onto the side of a plank :lol: )

 

[ColeyS1]

If you are managing shrinkage across the tread at the back edge like this (as per a window board), does that imply that you don't fasten or glue the tread into the riser? I assume the answer to that is no, and that you glue and pin this junction, but I'm interested in your thoughts.

When I do stairs I glue the joint.



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[Jacob]

If you are managing shrinkage across the tread at the back edge like this (as per a window board), does that imply that you don't fasten or glue the tread into the riser? I assume the answer to that is no, and that you glue and pin this junction, but I'm interested in your thoughts.

When I do stairs I glue the joint.



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Glue everything. But not "tread into the riser" as that's the wrong way round anyway. Should be "riser into tread" and not glued at the lower edge. Something's got to give!

 

[ColeyS1]

What do you think of my idea of maybe dovetailing the bracket to the riser?

I think a mitre would look better,especially if you've got carving on them aswell. Dovetails might look overly fussy imho. Making the joint look like a mitre but having it strong enough to stay together is the fun part. Its been said before but get the timber for this dry and stable to improve your chances of success.


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[ColeyS1]

If you are managing shrinkage across the tread at the back edge like this (as per a window board), does that imply that you don't fasten or glue the tread into the riser? I assume the answer to that is no, and that you glue and pin this junction, but I'm interested in your thoughts.

When I do stairs I glue the joint.



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Glue everything. But not "tread into the riser" as that's the wrong way round anyway. Should be "riser into tread" and not glued at the lower edge. Something's got to give!

I think there's two different type of tread/riser discussions going on in this thread. Solid wood treads and risers, and mdf treads and risers.....I think

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[Setch]

Well, obviously the solution we're steering towards is secret dovetailing the joint. Might be a tad labour intensive, but with Mike's work rate.....

 

[MikeG.]

I'd love to be reporting that I've made a start on these stairs, but I've completely and utterly stuffed my back. I can barely move the mouse, let alone woodworking tools.

 

[Racers]

Ouch! been there done that, had to crawl up the stairs to bed.

Get well soon.

Pete

 

[Jonathan S]

Yep we woodworking folk do funny things to our spines....remember a time I couldn't move or get out of bed, eventually I gave in and got my now shiatsu Guru out, 1 1/2 hours later I was walking....now I don't ever sit on sofa and have taken up a daily yoga routine.....it's worked for me.

Get well soon Mike!

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[Jacob]

It was statins which did it for me. Difficult to prove and controversial but I 'm fairly convinced.
Several bouts of severe aches and pains. Worst when I could hardly turn over or get out of bed without some complicated and painful manoeuvres.
Each time ended after giving up statins - sometimes immediately, sometimes more slowly.
Got diagnosed with arthritis here and there, but that now seems like a separate and much less severe problem.
Feeling quite sprightly at the minute!

 

[ColeyS1]

I'm in bed now with a bad back. Hope it gets better soon Mike.

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