Spindle moulder for oak windows

[Handsguy]

I am currently looking for a spindle moulder for producing oak windows using the Whitehill window system and later kitchen cabinets and other tasks for a barn conversion; I am looking for some advice.

What horse power would I need? (the trend window system recommends 7.5hp which seems excessive)
Does anyone have experience with whitehill window systems?
I am looking at a Hammer F3 (5.5hp) if it is suitable for the job, does anyone have any other suggestions or experience with this machine.

I am looking at a budget of around £2000 but could stretch this for the right machine.

Any help would be appreciated.

Many thanks

Dan

 

[custard]

Hello Dan, I think my spindle is round about 5 hp, it's a Felder so there's every chance it's actually the same motor as on the 5.5HP Hammer you're considering. For furniture scale components I've never had the slightest problem, even with 175mm steel twin tenon blocks and hard timbers like Oak, Maple, and Wenge.

Having said that some of the window cutter set-ups I've seen in joinery workshops are absolute monsters, I've looked at some of them and thought I wouldn't want to even spin one of those up on my 30mm spindle let alone cut anything! My instinct is to take the tooling manufacturers recommendations seriously, they don't have any incentive to limit their market by over speccing machine requirements, so if they say 7.5HP then that's what I'd be looking for.

Good luck!

 

[James-1986]

You will probably get away with a smaller machine if you make the cuts in two hits. £2000 seems a very small budget for a heavy duty spindle with a sliding table...

 

[Handsguy]

Thanks.

It makes sense that they wouldn't restrict their market, however trend are marketing their own spindle moulder with the system. The reason I am looking at the Whitehall system is that they seem to claim to match their tooling to the moulder you use so this would be particularly useful. I am waiting for a reply from them.

Regards

 

[heimlaga]

2000 pounds is roundabout what you should expect as total budget for a good quality heavy duty 1970-ies or 80-ies spindle moulder in good condition including delivery and the cost of some minor fixes.
If you are a good scrounger and decent metalworker with some unprofitable time you can invest you should get a very good machine for less than 800 pounds in cash.

 

[RobinBHM]

Window system tooling could easily cost £2k on its own. What is your budget for the tooling?

Do you have 3 phase? Im not sure you would get a single phase machine with such a large motor.

Stack window tooling that machines the rebate and profile in one hit in oak will test a spindle moulder, you would need a heavy duty cast machine like a wadkin BCC. A 5.5hp will cope just, but will need a power feed with a slow feed rate.

If you are making windows for a barn conversion you are likely to want a square moulding so you could make the frames and sashes with a rebate block, plus a groover for the weather seal.

Tenons can be cut on a bandsaw. You will need something to cut mortices even if you buy whitehill window tooling.

 

[Handsguy]

I have 3 phase and a heavy morticer so no worries there. I am budgeting for £3000 for tooling and as I said the £2000 for a spindle moulder can stretch. The point is that my workshop has long been in need of a moulder and if I spend £3000 or more for a machine that is quality and can produce the kind of work I will ask of it then I am happy to pay. I would rather a machine that will last for decades than one that I am constantly fixing.

Regards

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Off tack a little - why oak? I've never seen an oak window?

 

[Handsguy]

I don't believe you've never seen an oak window. It needs to be oak because the surrounding buildings have oak windows and the planners have stipulated that they must replicate those.

 

[James-1986]

I think you're dreaming, for your budget you will need to be very patient and lucky to get a heavy duty moulder that will take that tooling and has a sliding table. A felder planer with that spec will be well over 5k! I own and run 10 British wood working machines, they have all needed some attention, if it wasn't for my uncle Mark I would face a massive repair bill to get them ready for work.

Personally, I think those window systems are crap. The doors and frames are even worse, open joints?! I'd rather have a 4/5 head tenoner and do it properly.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I don't believe you've never seen an oak window. It needs to be oak because the surrounding buildings have oak windows and the planners have stipulated that they must replicate those.

Thanks for the reply, but no, I've never seen an oak window. The local council tried to make my friend replace uPVC some while ago with oak as supposedly original (in Redruth) - he'd been a decorator for thirty years and he'd never seen an oak window either.

 

[blackrodd]

I don't believe you've never seen an oak window. It needs to be oak because the surrounding buildings have oak windows and the planners have stipulated that they must replicate those.

Thanks for the reply, but no, I've never seen an oak window. The local council tried to make my friend replace uPVC some while ago with as supposedly original (in Redruth) - he'd been a decorator for thirty years and he'd never seen an oak window either.

Oak window? A rare thing here in Sunny Devon too! I've been renovating farm buildings for some time now and have only found the odd oak window Frame, and cill in this neck of the woods, openers being softwood.
The main being all softwood.
Regards Rodders

 

[Jacob]

window sections are small so 5 HP should be good enough - but bigger is better.
NB Oak is totally unsuitable for windows. There was a fashion for oak cills in sash windows but they always rot away well before the softwood. Oak doesn't take paint too well, which doesn't help.

PS if you grind your own tools they cost very little, which used to be the point of a spindle moulder in the first place. Much cheaper to run than a router and 10 times as productive..

 

[Peter Sefton]

Oak is classed as durable and is good for external joinery

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-ide ... glish-oak/

http://www.trada.co.uk/images/onlineboo ... 02s04.html

Cheers Peter

 

[Peter Sefton]

I have the Hammer single phase 4 HP in my workshop with a F38 power feed. I have made several sets of windows on it including all the Oak joinery on our current Grade II listed barn.

I did not use any special window tooling and feel that some of the bigger heavy blocks maybe a little too much for this model, but it has served me well for over ten years so no complaints.

The sections of my windows had to be very traditional for the planners so basic rebate block and standard kit was fine. This also means the standard blocks are as useful now as when I bought them.

I would assume it may only be worth investing in the more complicated window tooling if you are going to make it a regular production run. 2K sounds a little tight to me for I would spend more on the spindle and less on the tooling, build it up as required and get a power feed.

But happy barn converting!

Cheers Peter

 

[dzj]

It pays to shop around. The big manufacturers are getting more and more automated and
are slowly getting rid of 20th century technology, so who knows what you might run into.

 

[RobinBHM]

I have 3 phase and a heavy morticer so no worries there. I am budgeting for £3000 for tooling and as I said the £2000 for a spindle moulder can stretch. The point is that my workshop has long been in need of a moulder and if I spend £3000 or more for a machine that is quality and can produce the kind of work I will ask of it then I am happy to pay. I would rather a machine that will last for decades than one that I am constantly fixing.

Regards

As you have 3 phase, that gives you the opportunity to buy a 2nd hand industrial cast machine. These sometimes come with a tenoning carriage, but will have to search more, if thats what you want. I still have a Wadkin machine that I bought 15 years ago and is used nearly every day in a joinery workshop. Such a machine is in the £2k - £3k range. Definitely the sort of machine that will last decades. I would suggest buying a power feed as soon as you get the spindle, for ease of use, quality of finish and safety, it really is a vital part of a spindle. And especially so for joinery.

As Peter suggests, I would buy off the shelf tooling to make your windows. A rebate block and expanding groover. 2 slotters will cut tenons. If your windows are flush on butts you will probably want the bottom of the frame rebate sloping which will need a 9degree cill block or vary angle block. A groover will be needed for draught seals, cill groove, windowboard groove, head drip etc. If you are using espagnolette locks they will need a euro groove. You might need a drip groove cutter as well. If you using butts with casement stays make sure you have a large enough flat.

A simple to make window that looks great is to make a frame with square moulding to head and bottom but chamfered moulding to jambs and mullions. It looks great on rural structures, giving a stone mullion feel. Its easy to make as there is no scribing required, just an offset shoulder.

 

[Peter Sefton]

I agree having three phase will open up your market to a good range of second hand kit.

Cheers Peter

 

[HOJ]

I totally agree with Peter Sefton and Robin,

I have investigated the Trend and Whitehill window systems, neither of which are cheap,
and are restrictive as to the subsequent usefulness of the tooling, impossible to adapt for different needs and purposes.

I know of several small businesses that bought in to them but all they produce are windows for a mass market.

I make a lot of Oak windows, maybe that is a Norfolk trend! mostly traditional flush casements, but every project I take on, is different, so I need the flexibility to adapt the designs.

I have a Rojeck 315 moulder with a power drive, with a rebate, 7 & 9 degree cill, weather seal groovers, and various moulding profile blocks, plus a small second hand Sheppach moulder for running off beads etc.

I also run a three head Sedgwick tenoner, which is a brilliant machine to have for window and door making.

 

[PAC1]

If you are only making one set of windows for one barn conversion I would not buy the window system. Far better to buy a good rebate block, cutter block etc and sets of cutters to make the windows. The blocks will then be used for your kitchen and other things. I made a batch of 18 windows without any problems simply using standard blocks and cutters I had made at Whitehill. The systems are aimed at people who make windows all day every day and can make economies by not changing the block.