Specifying timber

[9fingers]

As a relative newbie to woodworking, I've been spoilt by my timber merchant who always asked me what the project was when buying wood and would sort out something suitable. He has retired and the business has been shut down so I need to learn how to get the right wood for the job.

I want to build a pair of external doors for my new workshop. I don't particularly want to go to the expense of hardwood but want some softwood that will not leave me with a twisted door.
The outside will be creosoted and so I'm not too concerned about the grain pattern or even knots if they behave themselves. The outside will need to face the rain but will have a proper frame and sill so it should not stay saturated.
If it helps the design will be rails and stiles with M&T joints. the infills will be plywood on the inside faces and externally these will be filled with feather board over a breathable membrane to match the rest of the workshop cladding.

Please can you advise me of what species of wood to ask for for the rails and stiles.

TIA

Bob

 

[Steve Maskery]

You can ask for Unsorted, which is a better quality than Fifths, and much better than BQ (Building Quality). If you are feeling flush, buy Western Red Cedar, which is durable. Altenatively have your timber tanalised, after you have cut all the joints but before gluing anything together.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Scrit]

To add a little to what Steve said, in 2003 the European Union banned creosote for amateur and unlicenced professional use due to concerns over these health effects. Recent research has shown that it's use carries a risk of skin cancer. So you'll need to find an alternative. I've never tried post tanalising M&T pieces as accurate as door rails and stiles, but I'd be a bit concerned about fibres swelling in the joint components - certainly in it's wet state it's difficult to glue tanalised timbers. Could anyone comment?

Scrit

 

[Steve Maskery]

That's a goog point, Scrit. You do need to leave the tanalised stuff to dry thoroughly before gluing, although PU glue might cope.

The reason I suggest (and do) tanalise after cutting the joinery is that tanalising is a surface treatment, so if you cut the surface, the seal is broken.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Scrit]

I suppose it depends on what the carrier is - if Tanalith is oil based then surely PU won't work with it as PU cures by reacting with water in the air/timber fibres/application brush/sponge/fingers, etc (or for that matter sponge fingers :wink: ).

Scrit

 

[Steve Maskery]

Ah, well, here we have reached the limit of my knowledge.

Cheers
Steve

 

[9fingers]

Thanks to Steve & Scrit for your replies.

If I ask for 'unsorted' surely I need to specify a species to get close grain etc for it not to move. I've built the roof from tanilised timber and the feather edge cladding is both tanilised and creosoted for good measure

Fortunately, I have professional quality creosote. PM me if you want to know where to get it. Used carefully, it is not a high risk material but amateur use without due care could be risky. Just like woodworking machinery!!

Cheers

Bob

 

[George_N]

amateur use without due care could be risky. Just like woodworking machinery!!

Cheers

Bob

Hence the nickname 9fingers :?:

cheers

George

 

[Anonymous]

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[Sean the amateur]

What does tanilised mean?

I presume that it is some kind of protection against theweather but I have never heard of it.

Thanks in advance.

Sean

 

[Steve Maskery]

Hi Sean,
Tanalised timber is treated to prolong its life outdoors. My local Nixon Knowles timber yard does it. If you buy decking, it's probably been tanalised.

I buy Unsorted, make my frames up, then return everything to the timber yard to be treated. Often I can pick it up the same day. The tanks are not huge, so it's much better to take your stuff before it's been glued up, otherwise you may not be able to get it through the tank opening!

It's pretty horrible stuff, and you'll drive home with the windows open. I think it contains arsenic. Is that right, Scrit?

I have to say I strongly disagree with Norman that "any old rubbish" will do. You do want it to stay reasonably straight, don't you? You can't prevent movement entirely (I wish!) but using good, well selected stock does make a big difference. I would use Fifths at the very least, but probably Unsorted. The difference in cost is modest and the pain of the expense transient. You live with the doors for years.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Scrit]

It's pretty horrible stuff, and you'll drive home with the windows open. I think it contains arsenic. Is that right, Scrit?

Not any more. It changed a year or two back. If you remember the older CCA (chromated copper arsenate) stuff certainly did - it had a definite taste/smell of pizza dough! When you handled it you could half smell/half taste it for hours afterwards..... These days it's a bit more environmentally friendly as they're using stuff like Tanalith E (invented somwhere around 1980)

I've shaped fencing components and put them in for pressure tanalising at George Hill in Oldham (Manchseter) - they run a pressure tanalising plant on site and the pressure treatment is supposed to give a greater depth of treatment. All I know it takes a few days to dry out in warm weather, or a few weeks in winter.

Scrit

 

[Steve Maskery]

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

As ever, Scrit's your man.

Thanks for the on-going education.

BTW, although it's a few years since I did any frames like this, I've just been to the timberyard today with my next-door neighbour to buy a load of Unsorted for replcement sashes, so we'll probably be using this new-fangled stuff in a few weeks' time.

Is the new as good as the old, Scrit, or is it just an inferior product clothed in a trusted name? Don't mean to sound cynical, genuine question.

Cheers
Steve

 

[woodbloke]

The other alternative, which has already been suggested is to use an alternative timber. Western Red Cedar is very expensive, though Douglas Fir is available in some places, a bit of Googling will tell you where to get it. Its quite durable and doesn't have many knots, as a hardwood iroko takes some beating for outdoor use and I believe it's not too costly - Rob

 

[PowerTool]

At work,we move CCA type C and arsenic acid in bulk for Rentokil/Protim/Osmose (can't keep up with their namechanges :wink: ) for export (mainly Sweden and Finland) and volumes have dropped enormously over the last couple of years.Used to be two or three tankers a week,probably only one or two a month now.
Conversely,one of our hauliers has a vehicle permanently delivering tanalith around the Uk from the manufacturing point in Accrington - this week,he is looking like he will almost run out of driving hours :shock: (Ayrshire,Kent,Perthshire,Cumbria)

Still,picked a nice week for it :lol:

Andrew

 

[Scrit]

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

As ever, Scrit's your man.

Thanks for the on-going education.

If I didn't know any better I'd say you were taking a rise [-X I only found our what was in it after the first time I used it for a job and was curious about the taste/smell sensation. Scared the bejaysus out of me, I can tell you. Certainly stopped me eating my butties before I'd washed my hands

Don't know if the new stuff is any better/worse, though. Tell you what, I put in some fencing and decking a few months back, why don't you come and see how it's doing, say in 20 years time?

I agree with Rob that iroko is a superb outdoor timber, but a bit pricey (circa £22 + VAT/cube) for a door, hard as h*ll, too, but it'll look better and itt will last...... These days it's cheaper than pitch pine round here. We used to get loads of it dead cheap from demolished mills - problem is there aren't many left to pull down any more.....

Scrit.

 

[Steve Maskery]

If I didn't know any better I'd say you were taking a rise

Not at all! I'm simply amazed at your breadth of knowledge.

S

 

[Wanlock Dod]

Is the new as good as the old, Scrit, or is it just an inferior product clothed in a trusted name? Don't mean to sound cynical, genuine question.

Personally I doubt it, the whole point of preservatives is to kill the bugs that eat the wood. I believe that CCA sucumbed to the same legislation as creosote. Creosote is a fairly potent carcinogen that is absorbed through the skin. CCA contained chromate and arsenic both of which are carcinogenic, and some forms of arsenic are absorbed through the skin. At the end of the day you'll probably have to retreat or rebuild your fence more often, but you're probably less likely to have kids with three heads. I'd say that is probably a fair trade.

Dod

 

[prawnking]

as you now i amfairly new to woodworking terms can someone please explain what is meant by`unsorted` and `fifths`
all i know at the moment is about general shop bought pine and hardwood and man made boards. o i know you can get sawn timber, planed timber and construction grade and that the size of planed timber was the size of the timber b4 it was planed i think :? :? :?

any other tips

:idea: maybe i should get a book about different timbers and their uses.

cheers

shaun

 

[9fingers]

Hi Shaun,

Like you I wondered how the grades got their names. After all 'unsorted' sounds like a poor grade to me and yet is seems to be amongst the best.

You might find this link helpful.

http://www.ridgeons.com/start/timber_se ... _main.html

regards

Bob