Speaker Designer seeks cabinet maker
- Thread starter smallangryboy
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cambournepete
Established Member
Which drivers do you use?smallangryboy":1tarwbd7 said:
Jake":2zrxtje6 said:
me too.
esecially with conventional drivers.
I read that quad electrostatic sounded good, but never heard any 1st hand. They're completely different anyway.
But a single cone and 'hi fi' dont belong together in my book
one of the reasons is the doppler effect.
that is like when a police siren is coming towards you it is heard at a different frequency to when it has passed and is heading away from you. yet we know, if you are in the car the sound is the same all the time.
now take a speaker driver and try to get low and high frequency out of it at the same time. The high frequency can be heard, but add bass that moves the cone slowly by comparison, then you get the police car effect, as the cone is moving towards you and away from you the high frequency is distorted. only slightly on small systems - but this makes it NOT hi fi by definition. Crank it up on a bigger system and you can actually hear the effect.
this of coarse doesnt cover the physical characteristics of needing a heavy rigid cone to move as one diaphram/piston without flexing to produce clean bass tone, and a light cone in order to over come the inertia needed to move it at high frequences.
loudspeaker design is very interesting if you like that kind of thing !
that is like when a police siren is coming towards you it is heard at a different frequency to when it has passed and is heading away from you. yet we know, if you are in the car the sound is the same all the time.
now take a speaker driver and try to get low and high frequency out of it at the same time. The high frequency can be heard, but add bass that moves the cone slowly by comparison, then you get the police car effect, as the cone is moving towards you and away from you the high frequency is distorted. only slightly on small systems - but this makes it NOT hi fi by definition. Crank it up on a bigger system and you can actually hear the effect.
this of coarse doesnt cover the physical characteristics of needing a heavy rigid cone to move as one diaphram/piston without flexing to produce clean bass tone, and a light cone in order to over come the inertia needed to move it at high frequences.
loudspeaker design is very interesting if you like that kind of thing !
Very simply:
For low frequencies, you need to move a lot of air, but slowly = massive heavy magnets, big speaker area (big cone).
For high frequencies, you need to move air very quickly, but not much of it = tiny speaker area (usually but not always a small dome), small magnets.
You can't do both. Normal speakers have two or more drivers, which cover the frequency range in sections. Cross-overs (traditionally made of inductors (coils), capacitors and resistors) are used to shape the frequencies which each driver sees. You can't chop off the frequency dead at a particular frequency, so one driver slopes in, and one slopes out.
Cross-over design is further complicated by the fact that the different drivers will have different characteristics (no driver in world is perfectly flat in its frequency response), so slopes need to be tweaked to get a smooth response in the cross-over area where you actually have two drivers contributing. That's just the basics, there are many other tweaks which need to be done right to get a great sounding speaker. It's a real science/art.
The alternative is not to try to cover the whole spectrum with a flat response, but to use a single driver. By it's nature, that single driver has to be a compromise, so its response will tail off towards the high and low end. Enthusiasts will say that this gives a 'cleaner' mid-range, as there are no cross-over issues between drivers in the mid-range. Detractors will say that there is no high-fidelity if you don't start with at least good attempt* at a flat response reproduction of all the frequencies in a recording.
*you can't achieve an absolute here
I hope that's a fair and balanced summary!
For low frequencies, you need to move a lot of air, but slowly = massive heavy magnets, big speaker area (big cone).
For high frequencies, you need to move air very quickly, but not much of it = tiny speaker area (usually but not always a small dome), small magnets.
You can't do both. Normal speakers have two or more drivers, which cover the frequency range in sections. Cross-overs (traditionally made of inductors (coils), capacitors and resistors) are used to shape the frequencies which each driver sees. You can't chop off the frequency dead at a particular frequency, so one driver slopes in, and one slopes out.
Cross-over design is further complicated by the fact that the different drivers will have different characteristics (no driver in world is perfectly flat in its frequency response), so slopes need to be tweaked to get a smooth response in the cross-over area where you actually have two drivers contributing. That's just the basics, there are many other tweaks which need to be done right to get a great sounding speaker. It's a real science/art.
The alternative is not to try to cover the whole spectrum with a flat response, but to use a single driver. By it's nature, that single driver has to be a compromise, so its response will tail off towards the high and low end. Enthusiasts will say that this gives a 'cleaner' mid-range, as there are no cross-over issues between drivers in the mid-range. Detractors will say that there is no high-fidelity if you don't start with at least good attempt* at a flat response reproduction of all the frequencies in a recording.
*you can't achieve an absolute here
I hope that's a fair and balanced summary!
well, between us, we have covered some basics. but its a whole lot more than that.
size of box affects the air resonance (like blowing on the tops of different sized bottles )
position of speakers to the corner of the room / walls etc can create reflections that add to the total sound and so alter what you hear.
position of differnt drivers in the same box mean that each one is slightly a different distance from your ear etc etc
all good fun
size of box affects the air resonance (like blowing on the tops of different sized bottles )
position of speakers to the corner of the room / walls etc can create reflections that add to the total sound and so alter what you hear.
position of differnt drivers in the same box mean that each one is slightly a different distance from your ear etc etc
all good fun
I always thought Lowther made the best full range drivers - their DX3's cost £371 a pair!
I have their DX2's in Accousta 115 enclosures (horns) and they sound amazing. I also have a pair of Quad Electrostatics but like the Lowthers they are not room friendly!
Rod
I have their DX2's in Accousta 115 enclosures (horns) and they sound amazing. I also have a pair of Quad Electrostatics but like the Lowthers they are not room friendly!
Rod
They are still "full-range" in inverted commas, though. They roll off pretty rapidly over 10kHz and under 150Hz - even with horn assistance the bass is compromised. And they have a truly awful spikey response across the spectrum they do cover.
Never heard one, so I can't comment on their subjective quality.
Never heard one, so I can't comment on their subjective quality.
Having previously repaired High end Hifi for a living( for more than 20 yrs) and heard the most expensive to the cheapest, I'm a little surprised by the comments. Everyone has different taste in music and likes a different type of sound, there is no nirvana, only what floats your own boat. These speakers look very nice IMHO but may not have the best sound due to the one speaker approach, but if the music you listen to suits then they could be ideal! If a single speaker design is required then the dual concentric ( where the center of the driver has a tweeter fitted instead of a cap) design used by Tannoy to great effect could solve the problems mentioned. I have made my own speakers several times and designed the crossover's etc but ugly speakers with a great sound don't really cut it with SWMBO!!!!
Hope this does not cause any offence, just my tuppence worth.
Hope this does not cause any offence, just my tuppence worth.
no offence taken here - most people would buy what looks and sounds good to them and their music. or just something that looks nice and fits on that shelf there !
most wouldn't know or care what true hi'fi is
and even if they had some hi-fi speakers - they probably wouldn't have a suitable 'listening room' or know how to set the equipment up to get a true uncoloured sound out of them.
most wouldn't know or care what true hi'fi is
and even if they had some hi-fi speakers - they probably wouldn't have a suitable 'listening room' or know how to set the equipment up to get a true uncoloured sound out of them.
Hi All
I used to be a dyed in the wool turntable fan and positively avoided digital recordings putting off purchasing a CD for many years. I have a system which to many people is high end but to true aficionados only a mid level system comprising Roksan Xerces turntable with Naim pre and power amps and CD player into Dynaudio speakers. I have toyed with electrostatics (Martin Logan) but returned them as they needed a bigger room than I had and at about this time I realised it had got to an unsustainable level financially as well as practically. I could not afford the next level of gear and a dedicated listening room and the kids were trying to poke the tweeter domes in on the speakers. So the speaker covers went back on, the Roksan was stored in the loft and I cancelled several magazine subscriptions.
Despite on the face of it tuning my back on my high ideals I found I still enjoyed the music, even from the CD player and even when I got converted to the convenience of iPods I found my love of music undiminished. I guess my comment here is really that it is extremely easy to get swept up in high end equipment (LN planes anyone? Festool etc etc) and ignore what the point of the equipment is.
Short anecdote:
I used to provide sound reinforcement for touring jazz bands and once did a gig in Harrow Arts Centre for Bill Bruford where a keen and knowledgeable audience came and worshipped at the altar of jazz music. At the interval I went to the bar and was approached by a hairy (beard) chap with a T shirt bearing the name of a VERY high end hifi stand manufacturer whose name I have forgotten but whose products commanded over £400 per item of equipment. He remarked on the outstanding quality of the music and how much he liked the sound we were getting - which was nice - he then laughed and said "isn't it ironic how I can sell a pair of speaker stands for £600 and you have all the back line (the amps the keyboard, guitar and bass were using) sitting on plastic chairs and it sounds loads better!".
Now this does not mean speaker stands are worthless as they are not, they can make a big difference but it does, I believe, illustrate the lengths people will go to take a hobby. Any fine point of any interest has its extreme level, I am also a hobby photographer and there is a bunch of gear heads like few others agonising over the latest and greatest digicams lenses etc.
Enjoy yourselves
I used to be a dyed in the wool turntable fan and positively avoided digital recordings putting off purchasing a CD for many years. I have a system which to many people is high end but to true aficionados only a mid level system comprising Roksan Xerces turntable with Naim pre and power amps and CD player into Dynaudio speakers. I have toyed with electrostatics (Martin Logan) but returned them as they needed a bigger room than I had and at about this time I realised it had got to an unsustainable level financially as well as practically. I could not afford the next level of gear and a dedicated listening room and the kids were trying to poke the tweeter domes in on the speakers. So the speaker covers went back on, the Roksan was stored in the loft and I cancelled several magazine subscriptions.
Despite on the face of it tuning my back on my high ideals I found I still enjoyed the music, even from the CD player and even when I got converted to the convenience of iPods I found my love of music undiminished. I guess my comment here is really that it is extremely easy to get swept up in high end equipment (LN planes anyone? Festool etc etc) and ignore what the point of the equipment is.
Short anecdote:
I used to provide sound reinforcement for touring jazz bands and once did a gig in Harrow Arts Centre for Bill Bruford where a keen and knowledgeable audience came and worshipped at the altar of jazz music. At the interval I went to the bar and was approached by a hairy (beard) chap with a T shirt bearing the name of a VERY high end hifi stand manufacturer whose name I have forgotten but whose products commanded over £400 per item of equipment. He remarked on the outstanding quality of the music and how much he liked the sound we were getting - which was nice - he then laughed and said "isn't it ironic how I can sell a pair of speaker stands for £600 and you have all the back line (the amps the keyboard, guitar and bass were using) sitting on plastic chairs and it sounds loads better!".
Now this does not mean speaker stands are worthless as they are not, they can make a big difference but it does, I believe, illustrate the lengths people will go to take a hobby. Any fine point of any interest has its extreme level, I am also a hobby photographer and there is a bunch of gear heads like few others agonising over the latest and greatest digicams lenses etc.
Enjoy yourselves
neilyweely
Established Member
tusses
True 'Hifi' is the sound that gives you goosebumps whatever the music you are listening to. (within reason). And it varies from folk to folk. So 'hifi' is objective really.
But you are right, most folk go for what looks good, what their friends say is good, or what is loud. I make cabinets for a local music store, and you would be amazed at their 'requirements'. I have totally given up on offering opinion or advice. It falls on deaf ears. People are more concerned with others being able to see their speakers than how they sound. I have fitted 18 inch speakers with about 3 inch magnets, facing out of the boot, away from the interior, so when they open the boot folk can see their set up!
But, if it makes them happy then who am i to object? It is a new world, and appearance is everything. I remember asking about a cabinet in a shop in Cambridge, and my question was obviously to the consternation of the proprietor, who asked - 'are you gonna listen to it, or take it to bed?" I guess that says it all really.
Truth is that 'hifi' has moved on very little in terms of sound, and masses in terms of appearance. But again this is only opinion.
Cheers all
Neil
Ps - the cabinets I make do NOT look as good as james' speakers, so I'll not offer my services. Mind you, I'll wager some of 'em sound as good.
True 'Hifi' is the sound that gives you goosebumps whatever the music you are listening to. (within reason). And it varies from folk to folk. So 'hifi' is objective really.
But you are right, most folk go for what looks good, what their friends say is good, or what is loud. I make cabinets for a local music store, and you would be amazed at their 'requirements'. I have totally given up on offering opinion or advice. It falls on deaf ears. People are more concerned with others being able to see their speakers than how they sound. I have fitted 18 inch speakers with about 3 inch magnets, facing out of the boot, away from the interior, so when they open the boot folk can see their set up!
But, if it makes them happy then who am i to object? It is a new world, and appearance is everything. I remember asking about a cabinet in a shop in Cambridge, and my question was obviously to the consternation of the proprietor, who asked - 'are you gonna listen to it, or take it to bed?" I guess that says it all really.
Truth is that 'hifi' has moved on very little in terms of sound, and masses in terms of appearance. But again this is only opinion.
Cheers all
Neil
Ps - the cabinets I make do NOT look as good as james' speakers, so I'll not offer my services. Mind you, I'll wager some of 'em sound as good.
wizer
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Tusses":2kd94yhp said:
Stick me in that bracket. I love music, a lot. But I really can't hear the difference between a good pair of speakers and a really good set of speakers. If they looks good and sounds good (to me) then I's happy.
smallangryboy
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So many responses
Speaker design is half science and half black art. As I said "full range" drivers have both benefits and drawbacks. I employ mine in a quarter wave loaded TL enclosure so that your "virtually" increasing the cross section of the driver and as a consequence reinforcing the low end extension, reducing the stress ion the driver as you get more bass without having to drive them hard.
Personally I've never heard the Jordan's struggle at reproducing music and they reproduce a "natural" sound which to me is what it's all about. One mans Gravy is another mans poison especially with speakers, so I'd challenge Tusses statement of what "True Fidelity" means. I'm happy for anyone [well maybe not anyone] to pop in and listen to them after all there's so much paper calculations and theory can do !
Lets not even get into hearing loss in people of over 20 years of age and what impact that has on listening to "true fidelity" loudspeakers.
You can argue that using multiple driver designs are going to be better as it covers a greater frequency range in an effort to reproduce a true linear response, however you have to include a crossover which by it's very nature introduces artificial filtering to the signal path. I prefer straight through designs but that's just my preference.
It's Oranges and Lemons at the end of the day. Lowther do make exceptionally good "full range" drivers as do Jordan [IMHO] which as Jake correctly points out I use in my designs.
I love tinkering and would never buy an off the shelf design now.
Speaker design is half science and half black art. As I said "full range" drivers have both benefits and drawbacks. I employ mine in a quarter wave loaded TL enclosure so that your "virtually" increasing the cross section of the driver and as a consequence reinforcing the low end extension, reducing the stress ion the driver as you get more bass without having to drive them hard.
Personally I've never heard the Jordan's struggle at reproducing music and they reproduce a "natural" sound which to me is what it's all about. One mans Gravy is another mans poison especially with speakers, so I'd challenge Tusses statement of what "True Fidelity" means. I'm happy for anyone [well maybe not anyone] to pop in and listen to them after all there's so much paper calculations and theory can do !
Lets not even get into hearing loss in people of over 20 years of age and what impact that has on listening to "true fidelity" loudspeakers.
You can argue that using multiple driver designs are going to be better as it covers a greater frequency range in an effort to reproduce a true linear response, however you have to include a crossover which by it's very nature introduces artificial filtering to the signal path. I prefer straight through designs but that's just my preference.
It's Oranges and Lemons at the end of the day. Lowther do make exceptionally good "full range" drivers as do Jordan [IMHO] which as Jake correctly points out I use in my designs.
I love tinkering and would never buy an off the shelf design now.
smallangryboy
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I also think [my opinion again] there are a lot of myths about Hi Fi and often people get caught up buying more expensive equipment chasing a ghost.
Many end up listening to the equipment and not the actual music which is, lets face it, what it's supposed to be about.
Don't get me started on Hi Fi and speaker cables!
Many end up listening to the equipment and not the actual music which is, lets face it, what it's supposed to be about.
Don't get me started on Hi Fi and speaker cables!
matt
Established Member
"Black Tulip"
Was this really the "best" hi-fi or just an urban myth? Made by Phillips, apparently...
Was this really the "best" hi-fi or just an urban myth? Made by Phillips, apparently...
