Social distancing, .. what's that?

[artie]

Please back up with evidence or redact

I'll back pedal a little and say I haven't been able to find one, maybe you can show me?

 

[Rorschach]

@RobinBHM Herd immunity is the end game whether you like it or not. We either get it naturally or artificially by vaccine, we do it quickly or we do it slowly. If herd immunity cannot be acquired (as it cannot for some other coronaviruses) then we live in perpetual lockdown which is impossible.

At the moment all we are doing it "protecting" those already safe (the young middle classes who work from home) while putting the vulnerable (older working classes and those in care homes) at risk.

We squandered our opportunity in the summer and we will now pay for it in the winter.

Watch the video I posted recently.

 

[artie]

Remember again, excess deaths during the first lockdown were in the region of 60,000
In line with the Covid death numbers

Statistics I've looked at show lower deaths this year than in many previous years.

 

[artie]

If you have any peer approved scientific evidence that proves herd immunity would be successful for Covid, I am sure you would like to share it with us.

But the whole lockdown fiasco was based on computer models, estimates and speculation, why are you interested in any peer approved scientific evidence that proves herd immunity would be successful for Covid,

 

[Rorschach]

But the whole lockdown fiasco was based on computer models, estimates and speculation, why are you interested in any peer approved scientific evidence that proves herd immunity would be successful for Covid,

He's not interested, it's a way to discredit others arguments. The whole policy we are living through at the moment has no scientific basis but he can't admit that so he calls for science to say it is wrong instead.

 

[Rorschach]

I notice "local" lockdowns are getting bigger and stricter while cases continue to increase. Could it be (as some of us said back in april/may) that lockdowns don't work? Surely not?

 

[FatmanG]

Remember again, excess deaths during the first lockdown were in the region of 60,000
In line with the Covid death numbers

And 2
you point that Daily death figures are now running in line with normal deaths rates......well gee that proves the Methods used to keep the R rate down have been working.
Thank you for confirming the Covid strategy is working. Well done.

Your in cuckoo land.

Don't worry your holy grail the vaccine is imminent.
Lockdown part 1 accomplished the following. The deaths of huge numbers of the elderly by emptying hospitals and sending them all to care homes with or without covid and it spread like wild fire. The same policy was employed in NYC by Andrew Cuomo which was a disaster and scared us here immeasurably. Lockdown accomplished the utter Destruction of freedoms, liberty and decimated the economy. None of which will ever return to pre March levels. We're now 7 months into the lockdown and we can clearly see that this virus is no worse than flu. The masks, social distancing is futile. Woodworkers should know about masks and particles getting through them. Its absolutely ridiculous to believe that the masks most people wear can prevent a tiny miniscule particle of a virus escaping. Its disingenuous for those clowns from PHE, CDC to claim a mask is vital. Its another form of control. Lockdown is clearly a disproportionate measure that has done far more harm than good in so many ways. Its clear the govt has failed miserably. Policy, track and trace all useless and not fit for purpose. President Trump has hit the nail on the head at last. There's nothing to be afraid of!
I repeat my solution I posted on here weeks ago. Isolate and protect the elderly and the vulnerable. Everyone else restart their lives open up the economy, businesses reopen and reclaim your life before its too late. What's the point of life if your unable to live.

 

[RobinBHM]

I'll back pedal a little and say I haven't been able to find one, maybe you can show me?

If haven't any, why write a post that says: "tests don't work".

 

[RobinBHM]

Your in cuckoo land.

Don't worry your holy grail the vaccine is imminent.
Lockdown part 1 accomplished the following. The deaths of huge numbers of the elderly by emptying hospitals and sending them all to care homes with or without covid and it spread like wild fire. The same policy was employed in NYC by Andrew Cuomo which was a disaster and scared us here immeasurably. Lockdown accomplished the utter Destruction of freedoms, liberty and decimated the economy. None of which will ever return to pre March levels. We're now 7 months into the lockdown and we can clearly see that this virus is no worse than flu. The masks, social distancing is futile. Woodworkers should know about masks and particles getting through them. Its absolutely ridiculous to believe that the masks most people wear can prevent a tiny miniscule particle of a virus escaping. Its disingenuous for those clowns from PHE, CDC to claim a mask is vital. Its another form of control. Lockdown is clearly a disproportionate measure that has done far more harm than good in so many ways. Its clear the govt has failed miserably. Policy, track and trace all useless and not fit for purpose. President Trump has hit the nail on the head at last. There's nothing to be afraid of!
I repeat my solution I posted on here weeks ago. Isolate and protect the elderly and the vulnerable. Everyone else restart their lives open up the economy, businesses reopen and reclaim your life before its too late. What's the point of life if your unable to live.

Why are you saying masks and social distancing isn't successful.

Where is your evidence.

Your argument seems to be this:

The country followed scientific and virologist advice to reduce the R value which worked.......and because it worked you are now arguing that: "oh look, not many people of died, so the effort that was used to stop it killing people wasn't needed"

 

[RobinBHM]

an clearly see that this virus is no worse than flu

Where is your evidence?

What you are saying is this: " the efforts to reduce the spread of the virus have kept its mortality down to flu.

250,000 to 500,000 die from flu annually in the world.
1 million have died from Covid so far.

And that is with massive efforts to reduce the infection rate

So please can you explain how Covid is " no worse than flu" when the evidence states otherwise.

 

[RobinBHM]

He's not interested, it's a way to discredit others arguments. The whole policy we are living through at the moment has no scientific basis but he can't admit that so he calls for science to say it is wrong instead.

You have just contradicted yourself.

You said:
"the whole policy we are living through now has no scientific basis"

So on what basis have you determined that?
Your reasoning has no scientific basis.

Back to the drawing board for you.

 

[FatmanG]

Why are you saying masks and social distancing isn't successful.

Where is your evidence.

Your argument seems to be this:

The country followed scientific and virologist advice to reduce the R value which worked.......and because it worked you are now arguing that: "oh look, not many people of died, so the effort that was used to stop it killing people wasn't needed"

No! My argument is failed government policy caused so many deaths in the first place causing fear to rip through society. The lockdown only achieved destruction of liberty and the economy. The r rate is totally irrelevant. Its deaths that matter and the vast majority of them were old or had co morbidities. The death rate is in line with the norm now its clear this virus is no worse than the flu. The lockdown has done more damage than the virus ever could.
Edit: 1m deaths I dispute that all deaths were due to covid but recorded as with covid.

 

[RobinBHM]

Statistics I've looked at show lower deaths this year than in many previous years.

Untrue.

Excess deaths has been carefully modelled.

Please provide a link that explains how your lower figures were modelled

 

[Rorschach]

You have just contradicted yourself.

You said:
"the whole policy we are living through now has no scientific basis"

So on what basis have you determined that?
Your reasoning has no scientific basis.

Back to the drawing board for you.

Where is your scientific basis for what we are doing now? Show us your peer reviewed studies?

 

[RobinBHM]

But the whole lockdown fiasco was based on computer models, estimates and speculation, why are you interested in any peer approved scientific evidence that proves herd immunity would be successful for Covid,

Because Rorschach's is claiming that in the UK, herd immunity may have been reached.

Evidence shows that is untrue

And there is no evidence herd immunity can be achieved naturally through infection.
We don't know how long immunity lasts.

 

[FatmanG]

Because Rorschach's is claiming that in the UK, herd immunity may have been reached.

Evidence shows that is untrue

And there is no evidence herd immunity can be achieved naturally through infection.
We don't know how long immunity lasts.

How can you claim herd immunity hasn't been reached when folk cannot get a test and the track and trace system is on a ventilator.
What scientific evidence do you have to prove its not been reached

 

[artie]

If haven't any, why write a post that says: "tests don't work".

Because I haven't found one, but I'm still looking

 

[artie]

Untrue.

Excess deaths has been carefully modelled.

Please provide a link that explains how your lower figures were modelled

Total deaths per annum are recorded not modelled, and they are there for anyone to check.

 

[Rorschach]

Because Rorschach's is claiming that in the UK, herd immunity may have been reached.

Evidence shows that is untrue

And there is no evidence herd immunity can be achieved naturally through infection.
We don't know how long immunity lasts.

I didn't claim it had been reached? When did I say that?

 

[Regex]

As the video I posted states we have become obsessed with one metric, totally ignoring every other disease and issue faced by the human race. It's mass hysteria and we are going to suffer long and hard for it. As usual though the ones who will suffer most are the ones least placed to bear it, the lower classes.

I wade into this discussion at my own peril. I apologise for picking out your post in particular Rorschach, but I have to start somewhere.

Some thoughts from me.

• Are we ignoring other diseases and issues?
  • One might think so, given the media reporting and social media discussions are almost exclusively focused on CV19.
  • On the other hand, I suspect most researchers investigating other diseases would not simply drop their life's work at this moment in time, so other issues like cancer, disabilities, and other afflictions are still being researched and treated (you just don't hear about it).
  • You frequently mention influenza deaths, comparing their numbers to CV19 deaths. The physical distancing and wearing masks will help prevent flu cases as well, since the flu virus can spread through the air in water particles from sneezing and coughing (just like CV19).
  • Other issues such as climate change are still very much a hot topic (pardon the pun).
• Mass hysteria
  • There is a bit of a frenzy related to all this, but are you really surprised? CV19 spreads fast and silently, with outbreaks blooming almost overnight in communities that were fine before, filling up emergency wards in hospitals with people on ventilators at the expense of other health problems requiring emergency treatment too.
  • This 'unknown' is scary, it fills many people with dread.
  • Increasingly we are hearing about long term detrimental health effects post infection: this really is not your regular flu which often just goes away again.
  • This entire heated discussion shows that we ourselves are not immune to the mass hysteria either.
• Focusing on one metric (deaths)
  • You are correct, we cannot just foucs on deaths.
  • I would like to mention that the following topics have been in focus for the whole time as well:
    • mental health, with people in isolation suffering from very real mental health problems directly associated with lockdown
    • economic impact to people's livelihoods is also real and must be considered.
      • However, this is an issue related to how badly the initial outbreak and ongoing efforts were handled, as opposed to lockdowns per se.
      • This is a failure placed largely on our government and their actions (or inactions)
      • This is not a political forum, so I will not dwell further on how well or how badly our government has handled this pandemic.
  • Increasingly we are hearing about long term detrimental health effects post infection: this really is not your regular flu which often just goes away again.
• Lower classes will suffer.
  • Correct, this has always been the case with events like pandemics, recessions, social upheavals.
  • People are justafiably angry. What is the solution?
    • Certainly flouting rules such as keeping a physical distance and using facemasks is not the way forward, as this will only harm people we are close to. I live here abroad, I have not seen any of my family since the start of the year.
    • A change in government?
    • Holding leaders accountable for egregious blunders/lies? (I'm not holding my breath)
  • I have been lucky enough to be able to work from home. As such I am insulated from the economic impacts, for now at least, so I will not lecture on this point.

Wishing all the best to everyone, and remember to "phsically" distance (I always hated the term social distancing).