slopey chisel

[PerranOak]

So, I am practicing my sharpening technique on and old bevel-edged chisel using an oil stone and eclipse.

I'm getting a nice 25deg+30deg hone but the edge is not square!

I can't believe it! The edge is really quite good and, looking at the hone in the light, it is smooth, even and crisp. BUT the whole thing is skewed - must be nearly 1mm.

What on earth can I be doing wrong? :?

Cheers.

 

[bugbear]

So, I am practicing my sharpening technique on and old bevel-edged chisel using an oil stone and eclipse.

I'm getting a nice 25deg+30deg hone but the edge is not square!

I can't believe it! The edge is really quite good and, looking at the hone in the light, it is smooth, even and crisp. BUT the whole thing is skewed - must be nearly 1mm.

What on earth can I be doing wrong? :?

Cheers.

You're leaning more on one side than the other

The small roller of the eclipse won't exert anywhere like enough force to overcome this (actually, no jig I'm aware of can generate that much force).

BugBear

 

[woodbloke]

With the Eclipse jig the finger pressure is only generated at the edge of the tool, the jig itself only serves to maintain the tool at the correct angle, so no need to press on the jig itself. It's a bit of a knack to use but once mastered it's pretty foolproof - Rob

 

[PerranOak]

Well ... I did think of that but:

1. am I strong enough to do this?
2. I must be doing it with huge consistency as the, sort of, "hone area" is perfectly square to the edge

I did notice that the bevel is not symetrical.
Also, the eclipse is a cheap B&Q one.

I don't want to blame the tools, I just want to "bark up the right tree"!

 

[Nigel]

On David Charlsworth DVD he makes a point of using a Eclipse like jig to straighten a chisel that is not ground square and yes it is all down to the pressure you put on the tip,

Cheers Nigel

 

[andy king]

End of the day though is it sharp? That is more important than the edge being slightly out of square on a chisel.
A shoulder plane or similar is a different matter.

cheers,
Andy

 

[Ironballs]

You can always get the Veritas MkII honing guide if you're still struggling

 

[tnimble]

Well ... I did think of that but:

1. am I strong enough to do this?

most certainly you are, doesn't take much force. The ecclipse is designed to be able to just that, take something in or out of square.

2. I must be doing it with huge consistency as the, sort of, "hone area" is perfectly square to the edge

When more pressure is asserted either left or tight of centre you'l get a nice skewed edge. With strategic chosen pressure points and number of strokes per point you can create nice a radiused edge also.

For chisels sometimes a honing guide with a wide roller that enforces a square edhe is more easy to use. The Veritas MK II is one of the most versatile and easy to setup.

 

[bugbear]

Well ... I did think of that but:

1. am I strong enough to do this?

What - overcome the mighty force of a 1cm wide roller - yes, I would imagine you are

2. I must be doing it with huge consistency as the, sort of, "hone area" is perfectly square to the edge

You mean parallel, I assume. This effect is caused by the eclipse keeping the bevel angle (bevel to back-of-chisel) constant, which is a different angle from the edge to side-of-chisel angle.

You should be generating the downwards honing pressure by pressig down with your left hand near the tip. It is easy to favour one side or the other when doing this, by accident OR design.

The "driving force" for honing should come from your right hand begin careful not to lift the handle. Pressing down is OK, since all that will happen is that the whole assembly will pivot around the roller, and the edge will come up from the stone; this causes no damage.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

For chisels sometimes a honing guide with a wide roller that enforces a square edge is more easy to use.

Yes - especially if the chisel is too narrow to "hold itself" on the stone.

However, with a wide roller, it becomes essential that the blade is square in the jig; a narrow roller evades this requirment.

BugBear

 

[PerranOak]

Thanks guys.

I'm sure you're right but I still think it could be the chisel itself. The bevel on one side is 5mm, on the other, 3 mm. Therefore, where narrower side sits in the eclipse is thicker than the other side. This MUST push it out of alignment!?

We are not talking slightly out here, it's miles! Some say I have a much stronger right hand and that there is a reason for that but it's not true! :lol:

I'm not sure a veritas jig would help this?

I may have chosen the wrong chisel to practise on.

 

[Lord Nibbo]

Perran where are you in Cornwall?

If you fancy a trip to near Looe I'll show you how to put it right

 

[pedder]

I think a picture of the chisel in the eclipse jig would help. When I get my jig I found that it didn't hold the chisel's back parallel to the stone.

Cheers Pedder

 

[TheTiddles]

Thanks guys.

I'm sure you're right but I still think it could be the chisel itself. The bevel on one side is 5mm, on the other, 3 mm. Therefore, where narrower side sits in the eclipse is thicker than the other side. This MUST push it out of alignment!?

We are not talking slightly out here, it's miles! Some say I have a much stronger right hand and that there is a reason for that but it's not true! :lol:

I'm not sure a veritas jig would help this?

I may have chosen the wrong chisel to practise on.

Boy, you really are rubbish at it! :lol:

That's a good edge though, so the principle is right, just needs a bit of practicing. Once you have a slight flat out of square then the chisel will want to sit back down onto it so it's not so much getting every stroke perfect but the first few.

You'll need to get rid of a lot of metal to correct that so I'd recommend a bit of coarse wet and dry on anything flat'ish, having a perfect surface isn't important at the moment, once it's square again, go back to the beginning and concentrate on moving both hands together and evenly. you are working way from you right?

Alternatively, go see Nibbo, this however is likely to make you want new things like Blue Spruce chisels, expensive machinery, a huge workshop and a fluffy dog.

Aidan

 

[Lord Nibbo]

Alternatively, go see Nibbo, this however is likely to make you want new things like Blue Spruce chisels, expensive machinery, a huge workshop and a fluffy dog.

Aidan

That's a pack of lies, not correct at all..... We've got two fluffy dogs

 

[DaveL]

That's a pack of lies, not correct at all..... We've got two fluffy dogs

I thought of you while in Sudbury market last weekend, there was a couple with four fluffy dogs, same sort as your two. :shock:

 

[woodbloke]

Alternatively, go see Nibbo, this however is likely to make you want new things like Blue Spruce chisels, expensive machinery, a huge workshop and a fluffy dog.

Aidan

That's a pack of lies, not correct at all..... We've got two fluffy dogs

Slight correction needed here again...two very big fluffy dogs - Rob

 

[bugbear]

Thanks guys.

I'm sure you're right but I still think it could be the chisel itself. The bevel on one side is 5mm, on the other, 3 mm. Therefore, where narrower side sits in the eclipse is thicker than the other side. This MUST push it out of alignment!?

We are not talking slightly out here, it's miles! Some say I have a much stronger right hand and that there is a reason for that but it's not true! :lol:

I'm not sure a veritas jig would help this?

I may have chosen the wrong chisel to practise on.

Nice photo. I assume you're sharpening in the hallowed double-bevel technique, and the photo shows perfectly parallel primary and secondary bevels.

It is certainly possible for chisels to not be held nicely in the Eclipse - it's one of its downsides, that people fix either by filing the chisel-cholding grooves deeper (it's easy to file the aluminium) or by adding "lugs".

Given the amazing consistency you're getting, I suspect that the chisel ISN'T being held parallel to the jig, and that (further) you're putting enough pressure on the jig that the angle of the jig/chisel "composite assembly) is being dictated by the tiny roller.

There are two cures for your skew, either (or both) of which would work.

* improve the chisel holding of the jig

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... ade#306508

* reduce pressure on the roller, increase pressure on the edge

The latter course is desirable in any case - excess pressure on the roller serves no beneficial purpose, and increase wear on the bearing and the abrasive.

BugBear

 

[newt]

Of course without correction it would make a resonable skew chisel 8) . Before doing anything else I would try another chisel to see if the same occurs.

 

[PerranOak]

Hey, thanks for all this guys!

Nibbo, I'm down in St. Ives and would love a trip to your palace! I think I'd better try to improve myself a bit first though otherwise you'd be wasting your time on a "no hoper"!

I did try again with the eclipse. I tend to hold it with both hands on the jig with both forefingers on the chisel, trying to keep it all square. So, I moved the pressure to the "long" side and - hey presto! - it did square-up ... mostly! Now it's more like a shallow "U" shape. Not too bad though.

I am working away from myself but may be pressing down too hard. Also, I've used about 100ml of 3-in-1 !!!

Should I be just using my right (I'm right-handed) to push back and forth and left to press down on the tip? Seems a bit kak-handed but that could be because I couldn’t do this while pressing down as hard as I do.

So, yes, maybe I’m not pressing enough in the right place, i.e. the tip.

I like the look of that modified eclipse in Paul Chapman’s piece referred to by bugbear. Also, my eclipse is from B&Q and it is yellow!!!! From where should I get a proper eclipse (esp. one modified like Paul’s!) or is the veritas one like that? I think that the "squareness" is going to be my downfall.

I did think of just using it on the skew but I want to be able to do it properly. Ultimately, I want to be able to sharpen plane blades!!!

Walk before you can run my old man used to say!