Slight orange peel with water based paint

[flanajb]

I have always used Morrells paint when spraying with my HVLP system, but I always struggle with a slightly orange peel finish. It is ever so slight, but I cannot work out whether this is due to the material being too thick for the gun or whether it is very hard to get a totally smooth finish without resorting to polishing post spraying?

I have seen some cracking spray jobs where the finish is really high sheen and looks wet without a hint of orange peel. I am using a Fuji XPC sprayer with a 1.4mm tip on Morrells 65% sheen water based pigmented laquer, so the HVLP is a good one, so it must be either operator error (most likely) or paint related.

Any pointers welcomed.


Thanks

 

[SeanJ]

can't help you directly with your problem but i find it hard to get away from slight orange peel with my hvlp system and am constantly varying the thinners to combat it. My atomisation with my 2 (?) stage earlex is not great but holds up for most work. Another polisher associate won't use HVLP for similar reasons preferring trad' compressed air for better atomisation. I'm hoping to upgrade to a £500+ system with a 4 stages hoping that will help things at some point. I also don't want to rub down and burnish just to get good flat/glass type looking finishes but would rather finish from the gun.

Sean

 

[Mike.S]

Caveat: I have no relevant experience!

But, FWIW, having just finished reading a book and watching a DVD about spraying (Spray painting made simple by Jeff Jewitt) it may be worth experimenting by thinning (start at say 5%); and/or adding Floetrol (http://www.spraygunworld.com/Informatio ... oetro.html); and/or larger tip.

 

[flanajb]

I also heard you can add additives to paint, but I think the floetrol you mention is for latex based paints and not water based. I may be completely wrong in that they are all the same thing. Although the primer I had was already pretty well thinned, I am going to experiment today and take my new batch of Morrells top coat and do as you say; adjust the thinning starting at 5%.

I do have a nasty habit of wanting to just crack on, but I suppose a bit more prep is required if I do want to try and get the best possible finish.

I will post my results later if anyone is interested

 

[Sgian Dubh]

With even the very best set up, mixture and technique you will always end up with some suggestion of orange peel applying finish with a spray gun of any sort. The only way I know of to achieve those immaculate looking high gloss finishes is through following up the spray job with a buffing and burnishing routine. The contemporary way to achieve this is with polishing bonnets and appropriate burnishing and polishing compounds. 3M do a range of these products, as do other suppliers. Slainte.

 

[flanajb]

With even the very best set up, mixture and technique you will always end up with some suggestion of orange peel applying finish with a spray gun of any sort. The only way I know of to achieve those immaculate looking high gloss finishes is through following up the spray job with a buffing and burnishing routine. The contemporary way to achieve this is with polishing bonnets and appropriate burnishing and polishing compounds. 3M do a range of these products, as do other suppliers. Slainte.

I was hoping that would not be the case, but now that I know, do you know whether it is possible to polish a water based finish or will this only apply to 2 pack related finishes?

 

[Mike.S]

I will post my results later if anyone is interested

Yes please, especially as I have the same (brand new) Fuji XPC spray system.

 

[cornucopia]

floetrol is an excellent additive and is for any water based (latex if your from over the pond) paint- it will help reduce orange peel but as has been said nothing will completly elimate it other than buffing.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

With even the very best set up, mixture and technique you will always end up with some suggestion of orange peel applying finish with a spray gun of any sort. The only way I know of to achieve those immaculate looking high gloss finishes is through following up the spray job with a buffing and burnishing routine. The contemporary way to achieve this is with polishing bonnets and appropriate burnishing and polishing compounds. 3M do a range of these products, as do other suppliers. Slainte.

I was hoping that would not be the case, but now that I know, do you know whether it is possible to polish a water based finish or will this only apply to 2 pack related finishes?

First I disagree with the "you will always end up with some suggestion of orange peel applying finish with a spray gun of any sort" statement. I don't have that problem when my guns are correctly setup.

Secondly yes indeed you can polish water-based finishes – there is no major difference between a water-based and an oil based finish once it has cured as far as polishing is concerned. Difference may be that you will need to put down more coats of the water-based finish then if you use a two pack polyurethane oil based finish.

 

[flanajb]

Thanks for these additional posts. I am going to hang fire on this until I can get hold of a litre of floetrol and give that a try. Failing that then I may just have to resort to learning to polish if I want to achieve a flawless finish

 

[Dibs-h]

My 2p worth - if you want a glass like finish, i.e. admire your (or anyone else's) reflection - you'll need to polish. There's no 2 ways around this - I've seen some exceedingly talented painters working on cars > £100K and they've used the most advanced paints and even having had the paint reps in - polishing is something you can't get away from.

When next in traffic - have a look at the boot lid\back of a 12 plate German car costing big bucks and tell me if it's free of "orange peel"?

One thing to remember with polishing - you can burn the paint easily and make it look almost worse, i.e. swirl marks. 3M do some nice pads that reduce this to almost nothing.

I'd play about with thinning 1st and improve your technique - before starting down the polishing route and like most things, it's down to prep. I've painted with an Apollo 700 and got a very flat finish in oil and water based - but prepped the nuts off it first.

With topcoat - remember it will amplify any "defects" in the stages prior.

HIH

Dibs

 

[mailee]

I have to agree with most of the above. You can lay a good level coat on with a spray gun but will never get a glass like finish from the gun. Where I used to work we sprayed 2 pak and then oven baked it. When it came out of the oven it would then be flatted and polished in some areas where the finish wasn't flat or there were particles in the finish. This was on a well prepared car body panel which is far flatter than wood or man made boards. JMHO. :wink:

 

[SeanJ]

must say i'm in the camp of 'there is always a suggestion of orange peel' with from the gun finishes, but i've fluked a few 'perfect' ones from the gun I'm sure - but never got a firm handle on exactly what elements all came together correctly, thinners, passes with the gun, temperature, retarder... Hence im using the burnisher and pastes more than i'd want to, those edges can burn real easy if you hang around a second too long!

 

[flanajb]

I just did some experimenting with Floetrol and it made the paint thicker. This made the paint very splattery from the gun. It has levelled as it dried, but it is still not correct.

I am now going to try just thinning with 10% water to see whether that is better.

Very frustrating as I have spent more time sanding back the finished coat before trying again.

Hopefully this will do the trick

 

[cornucopia]

how much floetrol did you put in?

 

[flanajb]

I started with 10%.

I am wondering whether the issue is the size of the needle in the gun. I used to spray with an Earlex Spray Station 5000 which had a default 2mm needle. The Fuji Q3 Pro that I now have and I would consider it in theory to be a much better unit comes with a 1.4mm needle. I am just not having any joy with it at the moment and to be honest I was able to get better results with the Earlex :-(

The paint does not also seem to spray evenly on the surface and after it dries there are areas where more paint was laid down than other areas. I am using morrells paint, but the paint is not flowing on the surface and as a result the finish when viewed from an angle with a halogen light is really patchy.

When I did try to really saturate the surface it just ended up running in places.

Any tips welcomed as I am pulling my hair out here

 

[sawdust1]

Hi flanajb, an old friend said to me that finishing is a controlled disaster. The making is the easy bit , the finishing is where the air turns blue. I have only sprayed lacquers and over the years i have only experienced peel on a hand full of times. If i use water or spirit based products i will stand the gun and tin of product next to the workshop heater for an hour before using. And make sure the workshop has wormed up before spraying. I don't know about paint but i get a good gloss finish where required by using a rubber loaded with thinners to pull over the dried lacquer. This softens the lacquer and produces a higher level of sheen than spraying straight from the tin , but i don't know if this procedure can be used with spirit based paint. As for water based lacquer once its dry you cannot pull it over and i presume the same goes for water based paint.

 

[flanajb]

Hi flanajb, an old friend said to me that finishing is a controlled disaster. The making is the easy bit , the finishing is where the air turns blue. I have only sprayed lacquers and over the years i have only experienced peel on a hand full of times. If i use water or spirit based products i will stand the gun and tin of product next to the workshop heater for an hour before using. And make sure the workshop has wormed up before spraying. I don't know about paint but i get a good gloss finish where required by using a rubber loaded with thinners to pull over the dried lacquer. This softens the lacquer and produces a higher level of sheen than spraying straight from the tin , but i don't know if this procedure can be used with spirit based paint. As for water based lacquer once its dry you cannot pull it over and i presume the same goes for water based paint.

This may well be the problem. My garage is unheated and when I have sprayed in the past it has always been during the warmer months. Am I wasting my time trying to spray in a cold garage?

 

[cornucopia]

Hi flanajb, an old friend said to me that finishing is a controlled disaster. The making is the easy bit , the finishing is where the air turns blue. I have only sprayed lacquers and over the years i have only experienced peel on a hand full of times. If i use water or spirit based products i will stand the gun and tin of product next to the workshop heater for an hour before using. And make sure the workshop has wormed up before spraying. I don't know about paint but i get a good gloss finish where required by using a rubber loaded with thinners to pull over the dried lacquer. This softens the lacquer and produces a higher level of sheen than spraying straight from the tin , but i don't know if this procedure can be used with spirit based paint. As for water based lacquer once its dry you cannot pull it over and i presume the same goes for water based paint.

This may well be the problem. My garage is unheated and when I have sprayed in the past it has always been during the warmer months. Am I wasting my time trying to spray in a cold garage?

yes definitely- the air temp needs to be at least 10c but ideally between 16c and 22c to apply paint by brush or spray

 

[flanajb]

Hi flanajb, an old friend said to me that finishing is a controlled disaster. The making is the easy bit , the finishing is where the air turns blue. I have only sprayed lacquers and over the years i have only experienced peel on a hand full of times. If i use water or spirit based products i will stand the gun and tin of product next to the workshop heater for an hour before using. And make sure the workshop has wormed up before spraying. I don't know about paint but i get a good gloss finish where required by using a rubber loaded with thinners to pull over the dried lacquer. This softens the lacquer and produces a higher level of sheen than spraying straight from the tin , but i don't know if this procedure can be used with spirit based paint. As for water based lacquer once its dry you cannot pull it over and i presume the same goes for water based paint.

This may well be the problem. My garage is unheated and when I have sprayed in the past it has always been during the warmer months. Am I wasting my time trying to spray in a cold garage?

yes definitely- the air temp needs to be at least 10c but ideally between 16c and 22c to apply paint by brush or spray

Not what I wanted to hear, but thanks for clarifying that for me. I have been spraying, sanding back, spraying, sanding back .... I think I will stop now #-o