SIP Planer thicknesser problems

[bookman]

I wonder if anyone out there can help. I am having problems with my SIP 10-inch planer thicknesser which I have recently bought second-hand. I am getting dreadful wavy lines in the timber when thicknessing - I thought that blunt blades may be the problem and have just fitted a new set with much fiddling to get the blades reasonably accurately aligned, although I do not have a dial gauge (would a dial gauge be any use anyway as the tables are out of alignment.

Fitting the blades was made all the harder because the in feed and out feed tables are not parallel - can these tables be adjusted? There also is play in the bottom ticknesser table - is this ok?

The feed through the machine seems to be erratic rather than smooth. The rubber roller and the machined metal one both appear to be ok.

Is all this because this is a really poor machine or is it just that it is out of fettle? Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[p111dom]

The out feed tables will have grub screws on the plates either side where the locking handles are. This I believe is the only adjustment although you can use shims but this would need setting everytine you convert it from a thicknesser back to a planer. There should be no play in the thicknesser table. All you can do is take it apart and try to find if anything is obviously worn and order replacement parts. Axminster do a clone machine and have the manual fir theirs as a download. Usually even the part numbers are the same from manufacturer to manufacturer. Axminster is easier to deal with fir spares if the parts are the same. My mate has one of these and his works great. I have the record equivelent which was so poor as a planer I only use it as a thicknesser now. Mine eats feed roller belts at a rate of one every 6 months. I use axminister for the replacements. This could be the cause of the jerky infeed .

 

[OPJ]

I'm not quite sure of what you mean when you say 'wavy lines' but, if you're taking very fine cuts (usually, less than 0.5mm) then you won't be removing enough material to get rid of the marks from the serrated feed roller, which could be what you are describing...?

Secondly, I'd recommend that you first try lubricating the thicknessing bed and to see whether that cures your feed problems. A stick of candle wax or beeswax would do. Or, you could use a dry lubricant, like PTFE spray, which won't 'stain' the timber (avoid silicon, etc.).

I also used to own a machine very similar to the Axminster model and, like Dom says; it also stretched and shredded the drive belts very frequently. I never got around to solving it before I sold the machine and upgraded but, it seemed most likely that there was an alignment issue between the motor shaft below than machine and the end of the spindle turning the cutter block (you'd have to remove the back cover to look at this). Or, was it where one of the pulleys was not in the same plane as the shaft? I can't quite remember.

 

[Mike.C]

I have the Elektra Beckum (Now Metabo) version and as Dom says there are adjustable grub screws which you have to turn a tiny amount at a time if you do not want the whole bed thrown well out of alignment

I too only use it as a thicknesser and you must keep the 4 threaded rods perfectly clean from chips and dust, because if you don't the action of moving it up and down can throw it out of square. I use dry lubricant as the dust does not stick to it so much.

If after this there is still play in the thicknesser table then you will have to dismantle it, clean it up, and then put it back together to see if the play has gone.

Cheers

Mike

 

[devonwoody]

My SIP is 6 years old and has been a good servant.
Lubricate the beds with beeswax, the machine will be much happier and respond.
Yes there are grub screws, I use a one metre steel rule for my straight edge alignment of top table.

(in fact I though I might replace the blades back in April this year but they are still performing well, I use the resharpening type)

 

[OPJ]

Another thing I found was that the grub screws needing resetting every time I came to re-fit the outfeed table, after a thicknessing operation (I guess that's why some of you now use yours solely as thicknessers... :roll. I never tried this but, I wonder whether it is possible to 'lock' the screws in position using a thread-locking compound? If it works, it might save a lot of hassle and bother resetting it each time.

 

[p111dom]

I guess you could but since everything around that area is aluminium which wears easily and quickly, that would make subsequent adjustment trickier.

 

[bookman]

Firstly thank you all for taking the time to respond to my questions. I think some of my woes are through "operator fault" - i.e. my stupidity.

I have now reset the blades again to be sure that I have them as precisely adjusted as I can without resorting to buying a dial gauge. I found that some of the play on the thicknesser bed was caused by the plates that hold the bed to the four screw threads being loose. There is a little slotted grub screw on each one that secures it, I tightened them all and that problem seems to be solved.

As OPJ suggested a lot of the problems seem to stem from the thicknesser bed not being slick enough. I have cleaned it and polished it with some bees wax and this has definitely helped cure the problem to the extent that the wavy lines across the timber have all but disapeared. I have found that while ticknessing some test pieces of 8-inch wide pine board that once the board is smooth the ridging will reoccur when taking a bit more off the thickness. The board is pine as I said ,and feels a little sticky to the touch once it is thicknessed. This indicates to me that the bed is still not slick enough so I have ordered some non-friction machinery paste from Rutlands in the hope that it will eradicate this problem.

I have pretty much left the planer infeed and outfeed tables alone as they are not really that much out of alignment on further inspection using a metre-long straight edge. Sniping seems to be minimal so I think I will leave well alone there.

One other hassle I have encountered while thicknessing these 8-inch boards is that my Rexon 4-inch dust extractor does not seem man enough to clear the chippings quickly enough and the hose gets clogged. The thicknesser does not like this as there is too much material hanging around in the thicknesser bed and thr rollers causing the feed to be a little erratic causing waves across the timber again. The dust extractor is usually ok on my router table and table saw, though it only has a 580w motor and an air flow rate of 1000 M3/H. I have about 5 metres of hose on it and I'm wondering if I'm loosing too much suction due to the length of hose.

 

[p111dom]

You're right to think the dust extraction is woeful, it is on mine however a mate of mine has the Fox 2hp extractor and it's an absolute animal. One is on my to get list just for this machine.

 

[OPJ]

If it's the extraction hose that's clogging up and not the area below the outlet on the machine, you could try removing the hose and looking inside the 100mm inlet of the extractor - if there's a cross-shaped grill in there, that may be to blame. The idea is that it'll stop large objects from getting through and damaging the fan. However, the consequence is that it also allows long, string-like shavings to collect and gather and block it off... :roll:

From what I can remember, the extraction hood wasn't as well designed as it could have been to facilitate the thicknessing of wide boards and the necessary removal of shavings. It would often clog around the cutter block and rollers. I made my own extraction port, which certainly made a difference - it was based on an old idea of DaveL's (I think?); somewhere on the forum, a few years ago, you'll find his images....

 

[devonwoody]

8" wide pine (and sticky) would be a test even for a machine costing ten times as much as the SIP in MO.

Yes that baffle really causes a lot of trouble, if you do go investigating don't put you fingers in there without clearing first with a stick, if blocked and then cleared I found the fan turned a few times because of tension release and I was lucky I did not loose my fingers, it really did spin.

 

[RogerM]

Another cause of wavy lines may be because you have not completely flattened one face of the timber on the planer before feeding it through the thicknesser. It only takes a very slight irregularity on the flattened face to cause the piece to rock as it goes through the thicknesser, and it can exaggerate the original irregularity many times. DAMHIKT.

I have the same machine and found I had to put a couple of shims of baking foil under the infeed table to level it, after I had made maximum adjustment of the outfeed table. Adjusting the infeed table in this way means that you don't have to level the table each time you go from thicknesser back to planer.

Overall, whilst a bit agricultural, it's not a bad piece of kit for the money. Time spent sharpening the blades as per Steve Maskery's jig, and setting them up using the 2mm creep method, is time well spent.

 

[bookman]

Thank you all again for bothering to respond to my questions. My woes continue and I'm sure that the problem is mostly me.

I managed to ding the new blades when trying to plane some fairly rough board; that was completely my own fault. I have turned the blades and reset them but I'm still not convinced that I have got both blades at exactly the same height in the cutter block, and that this could well be the core of my problems, that is why I'm still considering getting a dial gauge on a stand to enable me to be a lot more precise when setting the blades. You guys may well have thoughts about this - RogerM suggests using the "creep" method as described in the SIP manual. The creep they suggest is between 4 and 6mm. In the Axminster manual for their version of the same machine they say set the blades level with the outfeed table - which do you prefer?

If I could avoid buying a dial gauge so much the better as this is just throwing more money at the problem, also I find it hard to believe that a relatively inexpensive machine has such small tolerances - or is it exactly because it is a fairly "agricultural" machine that the tolerances are in fact more critical?

I checked the drive belts and they look fine.

I take on board RogerM's comment regarding inadequate planing of the first side of the wood being amplified when thicknessing the other side, but even though the first side seems really not too bad when planed, these "waves" as I describe them, get really quite deep and get worse and worse the more passes one makes.

I have now polished the thicknesser bed and the planer tables with the polish stuff from Rutlands and they are now really quite slick, so that should not be the problem.

The dust extraction is still an issue. The dust chute is clogging especially when thicknessing wider stock. The 4-inch hose is also clogging at some points. The bars in the dust extractor do not necessarily seem to be the bother as the clogging is more at the other end. I will try moving the dust extractor closer to the planer so that I can use a shorter length of hose. This is a pain as my small workshop is already overcrowded and I have the dust extractor on the other side of the dividing wall in the garage. This makes less clutter and also means that the noise is less in the workshop, anyway I will try it and see if it helps with the clogging issue. Buying a new, more powerful extractor is not really viable as funds are low!

Devonwoody, I have not seen the resharpenable blades - are they also double sided, and are they thicker than the HSS ones? The Steve Maskery video and jig looked encouraging - or is it that he's really good, and us lesser mortals would struggle with his jig idea?

As I say, I'm expect some of my problems are of my own making, but I'm not completely stupid honest! so any further advise will be welcome.

 

[9fingers]

The planer will be as good as a chocolate teapot until you have the tables in good alignment. Methods for doing this vary from machine to machine but it is normally a fiddly and exacting job not to be rushed. However it does seem you have more serious issues to deal with -see below.

I would set by the creep method but only a mm or two. This naturally only affects the planer.
Dial gauge - not really worth it for this application. IMHO neither are setting jigs as anything requiring a metal (or magnet) to blade edge contact seems wrong to me as it dulls the fine honed edges straight away.

Steve's honing jig is good but must be made accurately to make sure you hone the whole length. I find the edge obtained off my Tormek is adequate. Honing is more useful to extend use between paying someone to grind the knives for you.

Quick fix for your dings? slide one knife slightly off to the end than the other. The dings then don't line up and you get a near smooth cut - until the next ding. If you have metal in your timber get a good metal detector - cost soon saved in terms of buying knives.

I think the clue to your thicknessing problem is in your first post. You do not want ANY movement in the table whether it be due to play or flexing under load.

As soon as the planer encounters a harder bit, the table moves and a ridge is created.

Next time through that is still hard and sticking up so more stress and a bigger ridge - common sense really?

Find out what is allowing the play and fix that, then take very light cuts, although if you have a metal grooved feed roller, then your minimum cut depth needs to make sure it removes these. So a compromise is needed.

I don't know the specifics of your machine so can't be more precise in what you need to do for the various adjustments.

HTH

Bob

 

[devonwoody]

Are you still whacking that 8" pine. Put some 2" stuff through.
And how long is this board you are working on?
Also it sounds to me you are taking too much off at a time, alter your cutting depth, I assume the ruler/gauge is fixed on the left hand end.

 

[p111dom]

Personally I think I would take the blades out and start the setup from scratch. On this machine you set to outfeed table first. The grub screws don't so much adjust the height of the outfeed table but tilt it. You need to make sure the outfeed table is parallel with the infeed table first. Wind the infeed table all the way up and with a straight edge, adjust the grub screws on the outfeed table so the whole tops level. Once done, reset the height indicator on the infeed table to zero.

Only then wind the infeed table down by 1mm, insert the blades and use the creep method to set the blades. I agree with others that you should try and get this creep to within 2mm.

The quoted max material thichness for removal on this machine is only about 2.5mm and that's max. I wouldn't try and remove more than 1mm at a time.

Do that first and try to re flatten the first side agin and check with straight edge. Only when I knew the planer was set up correctly would I move on to the thicknesser.

 

[Mike.C]

As Devonwoody says you maybe trying to take to much off in one pass. Just because it states it will take upto 3mm that does not mean you should cut that deep. Try cutting 1/2mm to 1mm until you get things set up properly.

As for buying a dial gauge why don't you try one of these first. It is on page 30 and is marked as item '83' All it is is a square piece of metal with a notch out of it and I have found that it sets the blades spot on every time, and it only costs a couple of quid. You can phone Metabo who might have them in stock, but if not they will give you the number of www.powertoolspares.com who is a company that hold most of their spares. If Metabo does not have it get the spare part number before you phone powertoolspares. Don't worry about it not being SIP because these machines are almost exactly the same.

http://fc.zindel.de/scripts/CUWP_CGI.EX ... _zinfo.pdf

If you want a better device then you can also get one of these

http://fc.zindel.de/scripts/CUWP_CGI.EX ... 069_30.pdf

HTH

Cheers

Mike

 

[bookman]

Well this machine is driving me mad. I have that sinking feeling that tells me that I have bought a machine that has been used far more than I was led to believe and that it has been messed around with.

I took you advise p111dom, 9fingers, and started again with the set up. After lots of tinkering I have now got the planer tables parallel and the blades set properly with 2mm creep. The machine now planes really quite well and the finish on the planed surfaces is pretty good with no snipe. I have moved the machine nearer the dust extractor so that I can use a shorter hose and that has improved the dust extraction a lot, although so far I have not been able to judge how it works in thicknesser mode.

I turned to thicknessing again using some of the timber I planed this morning. To my horror the cupping and wavey lines are just as bad if not worse than before. As far as I can tell the feed rollers are the root of the problem - the feed is dreadful and I can feel the timber juddering as it is fed and moving up and down on the bed as it goes through and the whole feel of the machine is rough and coarse (I have only been taking cuts of about .5-.75mm). The feed is erratic and anything but smooth, and the timber barely makes it through the machine; I now suspect that somebody has played around with the spring-loaded bolts that I assume adjust the feed rollers. The rubber outfeed roller shows signs of wear with a few indented grooves across it, although these grooves are not bad enough to cause all this bother I would think.

Is there a method of adjusting the rollers to iron out this or am I stuck with a planer with no usable thicknesser? I have checked the roller drive chain and the gears and these seem to be ok, I have also checked the rive belt tension and that is also ok.

 

[Digit]

On the one occasion I have known that happen it was one of the rollers not making proper contact with the timber, the knives then lift and drop it, so yes, check the rollers.
On the machines that I've stripped the rollers were spring loaded.

Roy.

 

[9fingers]

Sounds like real progress to me! well done.

So why is the feed so lumpy? what are the bearings like on the feed rollers? Sometimes these are bronze bushes that can wear as can the ends of the rollers that run in them. Some machines have ball races, if so these can sometimes wear but in anycase are easily replaced and have the added advantage that the ends of the rollers don't wear usually.

Earlier you wrote about play in the table? Have you sorted this now?

Don't lose heart!

Bob