Shoulder plane technique

[Karl]

Philly, why does a shoulder plane (designed to plane end grain) have a 60 deg bed angle? When shooting end grain (a similar cut) with my No 9 I give the "bevel up" blade a 10 deg back bevel, so the bedding angle is effectively 10 deg, with the sharpening bevel at 30 deg, effectively 20 deg lower than the Gordon.

Ivan - I think that all HNT Gordon planes have a bed angle of 60 degrees, to avoid tearout on difficult aussie timbers.

If you are sharpening your No9 with a 30 deg bevel, surely the effective pitch will still be 50 deg? The 10 deg back bevel is irrelevant to the EP (in a BU plane). Or am I misunderstanding something?

Cheers

Karl

 

[Philly]

Ivan
As Karl said, Terry Gordons planes are all high angle to deal with the super cranky Oz timbers. In theory, a shoulder plane would be ideally a low angle plane as its function is to cut end grain. But here I learned something - a 60 degree high angle plane works perfectly at this. Sometimes established wisdom isn't the full story.
So to your #9. The bed is 20 degrees, you are sharpenening at 30 degrees. That gives you an effective pitch of 50 degrees, higher than a regular bench plane. Again Karl is right - on bevel UP planes a back bevel has no effect on altering the effective pitch as it is on the rear of the cutting edge when planing. On a bevel down plane the back bevel would be facing upwards, lowering the effective pitch. Hope this makes sense?

As you can see, your #9 is actually a high angle plane. And it too is designed for working end grain. The benefit of having the bevel facing up in this plane is that the iron is supported by the bed right up to the sole - check a bevel down plane and you'll see that the iron can only be supported up to the start of the bevel. This gives bevel up planes an addition 3 or 4 mm of support in the most important area of the bed, directly behind the cutting edge.
Does this make a huge difference in the "real world"? Maybe not a huge difference, but the old time planemakers like Norris, Spiers, etc, all thought it was worth doing on speciality planes designed for end grain work.
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[matthewwh]

Looking at the photo's what you have there is a very nice rebate plane, which is for cutting rebates across or along the grain. A shoulder plane is a different animal entirely and has the blade bedded at a low angle and installed with the bevel facing up. A shoulder plane needs to have a tight mouth, so inverting the blade in your rebate plane won't work as you will be left with a chasm rather than a slit.

RC62-64 sounds a bit too hard for most carbon steels I have come across, most of which switch from tough to brittle at around RC61, A2 takes some seriously advanced hardening techniques to get it that hard. A secondary bevel at say 35 degrees may well be enough to correct the chipping problem and in a bevel down plane this will have no effect on the geometry of the cut. I wouldn't recommend re-tempering it yourself unless you know the type of steel. O1 tempers at 200 whereas EN49 tempers at 100, so if you bring EN49 up to 200 it will be too soft.

At the end of the day, if it was sold to you as a shoulder plane, it isn't one, so I'd send it back and ask for one that is.

Cheers,

Matthew

 

[Karl]

I disagree Matthew.

I own and use two Shoulder planes of this type, blade bedded at 60 degrees. They work fantastically. I also own a Veritas Medium Shoulder plane, which works equally well.

With the blade inserted bevel down, the planes have a very tight mough. You can reverse the blade and use it as a mini scraper, but I don't think that anybody is advocating that as a means for planing tenon shoulders.

I think the problem here is the blade. If I were Chris i'd get in contact with the company from where the plane was bought and ask for either a replacement blade or a replacement plane. If that fails, contact Terry Gordon at http://www.hntgordon.com.au. I have had great service from him in the past in answering any queries I have regarding his planes.

Hope you get it sorted soon Chris.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Chris_belgium]

Hello, thank you for all the replies.

I have very little experience in sharpening blades, just starting out in the world of hand tools. That's why I sharpened/honed the entire bevel. It was advised to me to not use a micro bevel since it is kind of a shortcut, and since I'm a novice, to sharpen/hone the entire bevel and as I progress, then start using microbevels,... I have done it this way on my stanley 4 and got very good results with it, I could plane end grain effortless. A world of difference as the result I'm getting with this plane.

I have bought the plane directly from HNT, and have not contacted them about this, as I'm still suspecting it's something I'm doing wrong and not the plane. I'll give it one last try and sharpen ti with a microbevel this time. If it still get's the same result I'll contact them and ask their advice.

 

[Chris_belgium]

By the way it looks as if you are planing an old piece of wood which has a finish on it (or dirty) that certainly won't help.

Alan

This was just piece of offcut I was using to test long grain planing. The tenon shoulder end grain I was trying to plane was freshly routed so no dirt on that.

 

[Chris_belgium]

Is that Iroko that you are planing?

It's aphselia doussie.

 

[Chris_belgium]

I disagree Matthew.

I own and use two Shoulder planes of this type, blade bedded at 60 degrees. They work fantastically.
Karl

Would you mind telling me how and at what angles the bevel, micro bevel, back bevel are sharpened?

 

[Karl]

Chris

Your blade will probably have a primary grind of 25 degrees. I then hone a secodary bevel at 30 degrees. I don't use a back bevel. But it is important to polish the back of the blade once you have honed the sharpening angle. This will remove the burr raised at the sharpening stage.

There is a recent thread giving excellet details on how to sharpen - I will have a look for it.

Also, check out the HNT website for details on how to sharpen.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Chris_belgium]

Chris

There is a recent thread giving excellet details on how to sharpen - I will have a look for it.


Cheers

Karl

I know, I started it

 

[Karl]

Chris

There is a recent thread giving excellet details on how to sharpen - I will have a look for it.


Cheers

Karl

I know, I started it

:lol:

 

[Chris_belgium]

just back from my shop, tried honing the bevel at 30 and then a secondary bevel at 35, but no luck, after a couple of 'shavings' there were already some pieces broken off from the edge. I'll mail HNT and ask their advice.

 

[Mr Ed]

Is that Iroko that you are planing?

It's aphselia doussie.

Although I have never used it I believe Doussie to be a bit of a nightmare to plane, so you're not giving yourself an easy ride developing technique on a timber like that.

I would try something with a nice fine grain that works easily- how about cherry?

Cheers, Ed

 

[Chris_belgium]

Is that Iroko that you are planing?

It's aphselia doussie.

Although I have never used it I believe Doussie to be a bit of a nightmare to plane, so you're not giving yourself an easy ride developing technique on a timber like that.

I would try something with a nice fine grain that works easily- how about cherry?

Cheers, Ed

When I was practising sharpening with my stanley 4, I did succeed in full length end grain shavings with not that much effort on this wood, so don't think that it's the wood that's the cause of this problem.

 

[JeremyM]

Chris I have a HNT shoulder plane and have experienced similar problems of poor performance despite a sharp finely set blade. Examination showed the sole had lost flatness and the front/rear parts were not co-planar. Some careful flattening with 240 then 400g wet and dry on plate glass restored its function.
I guess our humid conditions and my unheated garage isnt ideal but strangely I have had little problem with my block plane or smoother with wood movement.

Jeremy

 

[graween]

Hi.

Well the fact that these planes soles are in metal, might also be reason. Metal moves also, and brass is known (If I remember well, not sure) to be moving. Mixed wood and brass could explain distortion. Even if when cold metal shrink, and wood grows (because low temp = higer humidity), as the revers occurs when it's hot, which should compensate each others maybe.
Don't really know.

However Gordon planes have good reputation, I'm surprised that you guys have these troubles ...

 

[Chris_belgium]

I can see how that would lead to the plane not producing fine shavings, but the broken down edge on the blade, could that also be caused by this?

 

[graween]

Hi Chris.

don't you have a spare blade, or a blade of another plane that you could swap into this one to make a test ?
That could help you find out if it comes from the blade or the plane.

Hope this help. I'm in france, but to far from belgium to bring you one (if you nick name is relevant biensur).

 

[ivan]

Ordinarily Philly et al. would be right, but the 10 deg back bevel on my No 9 allows honing at 20 deg (so blade is sharp at 10 +20 = 30) The effective bed angle is reduced to 10 deg, the shaving being lifted to 40 deg, 20 deg lower than the Gordon. The low 'angle of attack' makes end grain easy to cut, with long continuous shavings. But there, I haven't used difficult Aussie timber; all the same, I find it hard to get to grips with the idea of 60 deg for end grain; with the grain, yes, but shoulders? I shall have to have a play with a spare blade!

 

[Philly]

Ivan
You'd be amazed - a sharp blade is the most important thing.

As for the back bevel thing - remember, the wood only "sees" the upper surface of the iron. The rear of the blade (be it the bevel of a bevel down or the "back" of a bevel up plane) is invisible to the wood and, as long as you have about 10 degrees of relief, it matters not what angle you grind it to. It's the upper surface that does the cutting.
Cheers
Philly